Is there any way Klitshkos could become ATGs?

mIKE says nothing but stupid shit

 

The mythical matchup laws are being enforced in this thread you know, and they are laws :nono:

 

Lennox Lewis last fought 8 years ago. Don't forget that for most of his career he was viewed as being far from as good as Holy, Bowe, and Tyson. Now he is generally viewed as their superior and the best heavy of the 90's and an ATG.

Since Lennox retired, Vitali has gone 10-0 (8) against a combined 341-15-4.

Wlad has gone 16-2 (12) over this same period, avenging one loss and Vitali avenged the other. His opponents had a combined 542-31-10. Over the last 7 years since his last loss, his record is 14-0 (10) against a combined 404-22-10.

I'd be interested in seeing any other heavyweight who can come close to these numbers over an 8 year period with the Klitschko's record. I doubt anyone else is out there. No one has been bypassed or ducked. The only fighter with a big record who was missed by the Klitschkos that I can think of during this time period was Valuev and no one holds that against them.

Perhaps even more impressive than their winning percentages against opponents with these kind of winning percentages is the Klitschko's combined percentage of rounds won against rounds fought. They are taking the best out there and completely shutting them down. Which ATG's have ever done this? This takes us into RJJ territory, but I don't think his competition was as good when he was dominating like this.

But the era is weak. Why is the era weak? Because USA heavies decided that there were easier ways to make money. Football and basketball became better options. This ignores the fact that Football and basketball have always been easier ways to make big money, but whatever. It can't be that the Klitschko's are great fighters. They are too big.

What it really comes down to is this. Most people don't consider Wilt Chamberlain to be the greatest basketball player of all time because they don't want to. I think he is and it's not even close. So you blame his physical tools and the era he played in because it's all you possibly have to argue for someone else.

 

Honestly, you guys are idiots with this shit

It is PARTICIPATION... FAR FEWER AMERICANS PARTICIPATE IN BOXING THAN USED TO BE THE CASE...

Nothing can change that, it is a FACT

Young kids aren't learning to box at anywhere near the level that used to be common... It's been on a steep decline since the 1990s

As for mIKE's Chamberlain thing, at least you're consistent: Wilt played in a game with 1/8 the talent pool Kobe Bryant is playing in... same thing with Andre Ward compared to Ezzard Charles... Charles fought when there were great technicians all over the place, Ward fights in a time when you couldn't scrape together 20 in all of the weight classes combined

 

Oh, and mIKE, this isn't baseball... the numbers don't mean a fucking thing in the context you are using them

Oh look, Buck Smith was 120-4-3 at one point, wow he must have been a GREAT FIGHTER

 

Why don't you attack the opponents they fought. They aren't Buck Smiths.

Numbers do mean a thing when you whiner bitches are just throwing out ipsi dixit arguments and can't back up your jack shit allegations. Even if the era that the Klitschkos have dominated is weak, their level of domination makes them ATG's, anyway. No one dominated this level of opponent like they have to the degree they have. Tyson, Frazier, and Foreman had similar stretches of it, but it didn't last as long. Ali? Holmes? Louis? None of them have this type of round winning percentage against similar opponents that I know of.

 

their opposition has been far worse than any of those guys

their best opponents are in the class of the other guys' lousiest

 

The Klitschkos should be considered ATG's for opening the game up in Europe at a time it was badly flagging elsewhere. Just for that, a case could be made. You don't need to be a fistic phenom to be an ATG. If that was the case bums like Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey would be mere associate members of this thing of ours. Instead, they are made men, winners of countless Mythical Matchups......Jack Johnson vs T1000....Johnson Ko1, why...cos the T1000 has metal skin but Jack Johnson fucked white bitches no homo and beat up an ancient Jeffries. Yeah. Ok.

You throw in the collective record of the brothers, their collective talents, and their out-of-the-ring exploits and they really should have no problem getting made.

Instead, we have to deal with all sorts of hokum about their height.

Please.

They brought a more than satisfactory veneer of respectability to the game when the alternative would have been to see the Blue Riband division of boxing reduced to the personal play-pen of UFC bums and David Haye.

They might not be America's favourite boxers but America isn't the only outfit in town. America has one seat on the commission. Thats it. A boxer is a boxer is a boxer and any boxer who does right by boxing needs consideration.

 

nobody picks Jack Johnson to beat anybody

 

But he's an ATG right??

Ring had him in at #3 of the top 20 fighters of the 20th Century.

 

he's an all-time figure and comparable to his time, I suppose yeah

but Jack Sharkey would knock the shit out of him, frankly

 

Right...so now how do we define an ATG??? :dunno:

 

I define it by if the guy could actually fight and if the guys he fought could as well

in that case, Jack Johnson doesn't even rate at all

I've explained my position 700 times

Dig:

from the "Is FLoyd a top 20 all time p4per?" thread after someone brought up Harry Greb:

ME:

I don't know what Greb looked like, none of us do... can't see him, nothing exists

THAT SAID, the 1920s is clearly a transitional period, boxing starts to get BETTER in that decade but it is in no way, shape, or form a fully realized product. Tunney, for the time, was advanced... he used his legs more, he had a fairly modern looking jab, etc. ... Jack Sharkey looks far and away the most techinically skilled of the heavyweights of the day, it's not even close, but he was undone at the time by a lack of intangibles (the most underrated aspect of the game) ... Benny Leonard was inventing moves, I mean watch footage of him... his footwork is vastly superior to his counterparts, his use of angles, his counteprunching, simply off the charts compared to his contemporaries... Panama Al Brown also cuts an imposing figure in this time... BUT, these guys STILL look relatively raw compared to guys from even 20 years later... Based on the guys Greb fought that there is footage of, I find it hard to believe he'd do anything but willingly get outclassed against a guy like Bernard Hopkins...

Here is what I DO NOT understand about the "old fighters suck" brigade... the common theme that I see in the viewpoints of jaws/TLC/WBC, etc. is that it all seems to come to a grinding halt around the time of color TV... I don't see anyone here saying "Chad Dawson KO4 Bob Foster because Bob Foster was champion 40 years ago" but you can bet your life you would hear "Chad Dawson KO4 Archie Moore-- look at the footage, LOL, look how primitve they are HAHAHAHA Athletes are so much better, blahblah" ... the difference between Foster and Moore is just a little over 10 years... in 10 years, some massive shift/evolution in talent occured that changed everything? I'm not buying that... A lot of this, a huge part of it, is audio/video quality and technology... If I filmed Dawson/Pascal from a luxury box vantagepoint, with no jump cuts, no alternate angles, using grainy B&W film, the only thing that would give it away as a recent fight would be the ring attire/hairstyles/ring advertisements...

Furthermore, the notion of "athleticism" is profoundly overrated here... this isn't football where the ability to run fast or push around huge amounts of weight is a premium... Great skill, desire, intuitive understanding and instinct for fighting overcomes the ability to run and jump fast... I mean, if you were to pile up videotapes filled with fights where the more athletic guy lost, you'd have a pile as high as the Empire State Building... I see far fewer skillful, instinctive fighters now than I saw 10 years ago... I honestly don't see how someone could watch Tim Bradley and say "yeah, that guy beats Nicolino Locche" ... I don't see it... the difference in skill is preposterously one-sided

It all seems as choosy as anything else... It's as stupid as Tracy Callis, in my opinion... WHere's the cutoff? shouldn't Juan Diaz kill Roberto Duran at 135? after all, Diaz fought only a few years ago while Duran's peak came when a lot of people still didn't have colored TVs... Joe Greene was a 275 pound Defensive Tackle at that time, a laughable idea in the modern NFL (and rightly so, in the case of football) ... To me, the argument seems to be pulled out when it is convenient... in other words, any time a guy like Ezzard Charles or Robinson or Gavilan is brought up, we get the 'oh, bullshit... black and white... there's white guys in the top 10... its so primitive, blahblahblah" but nobody says that bullshit when the fight is in color a mere 10-15 years later, less than half of the time that has passed since a guy like Duran was at his peak

Boxing didn't just suddenly become modern in 1970

It changed drastically between 1920 and 1940, and it changed drastically between 1900 and 1920... but Willie Pep sure as fuck doesn't look primitve to me, Ezzard doesn't, Robinson, Gavilan, Harold Johnson, Joe Brown, Archie, they don't look primitive at all

If you had a color version fo Robinson in 1949 with multiple angles, nobody would say "ah, bullshit, primitive caveman" ...
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Following up, the motherfuckers I mentioned in that post not only don't look primitive, they look ADVANCED

James Toney is a fat slob, but he had a long career with only a handful of defeats because he basically fought like an Archie Moore/Harold Johnson hybrid

What young guys fight like that right now? they wouldn;'t have a clue how to fight that way and more importantly, how to deal with a guy who did

 

Don't Forget about Brian Nielsen...Didn't he Match or Even SURPASS Rocky Marciano's 49-0 Mark???...Perhaps THE WORST Way to Rate Fighters (Particularly Those from Different Era's) is STATISTICALLY...

The Contrarian Bullshit Artist has Struck AGAIN!!!....



REED:mj:

 

Every Guy U just Named Fought BETTER OPPOSITION than the Klits Did...Hell, Ali's Resume Alone is Superior to the COMBINED Resume of the Klits....



REED:shit:

 

Ali is the greatest of all time, ever, anywhere.

Once again, we seem, collectively, as a forum, to have a problem dictating where the cut-off exists.

KauKipKr already alluded to it when Golota's name came up.

You get to a guy like Bowe, who never fought Lewis or Tyson, and pretty much was exposed, fistically, by Golota, twice......yet Bowe, who never erased the stench of the 1988 Olympics, seems to at the very least straddle the boundary of ATG status.

 

Nah...

Bowe WASN'T an "All Time Great" in REED's Book...VERY GOOD Fighter, but SHORT of Greatness...



REED:Ramonza:

 

In bold there,..speaking of Lennox Lewis,... Bowe had rabbit in the blood and ran back to Ethiopia,.. that's a notch on the resume Lennox is well entitled to,..

 

It's part of what the original Lewis hate originated in.......they knew this big tea-drinking Faggot from Vancouver/London had embarrassed them in Seoul.....and then Riddick teamed up with that MORON and did it again when he turned the WBC belt into Oscar from Sesame Street.

 

Yup....Bowe was a very good fighter NOT an ATG....and neither Klit has defeated anyone in Bowe's level.....

 

:: ,..They thought they had it bad then,...they thought it couldn't get any worse,...

...........little did they know the WORST IMAGINEABLE nightmare was right around the corner,...

Lennox aint so bad no more.

 

I think that Vitali and Bowe share some common opponents :crafty:

Lewis, Donald, Hide, :Ramonza:

 

Exactly. Old Lenny proved his worth....in the most unexpected fashion possible.

 

I gernally thought highly of Lennox his whole career, so who are THEY?

 

And I again explained my position which has nothing to do with "romanticism" or "nationalism" and once again it has fallen on deaf ears (eyes?) and in a few weeks some ignorant shit like mIKE will paint me with the same brush AGAIN and I'll be included in the Irish/Kauki American Boxing Conspiracy AGAIN

 

I think its pretty safe to say that Lennox Lewis was the beneficiary of some very opportunistic revisionism after he retired, no?

 

It's a 'spirit' ... :crafty:

 

Neither VITALY or WLADIMIR have a victory over anyone as good as RIDDICK BOWE!!!....

 

But your boy John Ruiz did.. :Thumbs: he beat both Bowe's anatagonists.