Mike Tyson (88) vs Lennox Lewis (00)

Great post.

It's just speculation, because Tyson had an absurdly short prime/peak, we don't know how he would have fared against an elite fighter in his prime, but at least fucking acknowledge that his losses were when he was FAR from his best.

 

Agreed. Very similar things can be said about Don Curry who arguably lost to every great fighter he ever faced, if you take a simplistic view. If fate had been different & the first great fighter Benitez had fought had been say Mike McCallum in 1985, aged 26 we'd have very different perspectives on him, too. Just like all walks of life, some guys just go off the rails.

 

It is a fact of the division, but it is not a fact of Rahman. Not at all. It's not significant Rahman never did this, before or since? Well, I disagree with that. Nothing is ridiculous when a fighter of Tyson's power (not to mention the velocity & accuracy of those punches, which, obviously, enhance the blows) lands a couple of punches on a man taken out with single shots by fellows who not only lacked his power, but also his precision & handspeed.

I mean, I don't understand how you can say, "Anything can happen with big men & even the shittiest can cause major damage easily," in one sentence, & then say one of the division's all-time greatest hitters couldn't possibly take Lewis out with a few well-placed shots, & it's ridiculous to suggest so. Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

Anyway, I never rated Lewis' chin, & I don't see a lot of reason to do so. If you're looking for other fights, well, there is of course the McCall bout --- another man who never really put anyone else out with one punch. Briggs, again. That was a great KO for Lewis, but you look at fighters with real chins, like Foreman, for instance, & they are never troubled by a Briggs. Even the way Lewis fought was entirely conducive to protecting his chin --- something he didn't fully do until after his first loss. I haven't watched the fight with Klitschko in a while, maybe I will look that up. He's never been the, "follow-up fluidly" type though, to put it kindly. Tyson was.

Tyson isn't the only man in this match to never get off the canvas to win a fight.

 

I'm not saying that it is beyond the realms of possibility that Tyson wins. In fact, I think he lands the big bombs about two times in ten and gets the job done. Of course that is possible.

But you are suggesting it is likely, which I completely disagree with. Tyson has to overcome an enormous height, weight and reach disadvantage against the man who practically invented the art of a truly huge heavyweight fighting huge. Even if he overcame these considerable disadvantages, he then has to be able to avoid one of the best and most devastating right hands in HW history-lest we forget that Lewis himself is capable of causing some serious damage with that straight right hand, something which has been seriously overlooked in this thread as usual.

The bottom line is that we will have to agree to disagree on the issue of Lewis' chin and heart. Do rewatch the Klitschko fight for evidence of Lewis showing an abundance of BOTH even at that advanced stage of his career.

MTF

 

I'm gonna have to disagree with your assessment of Spinks and Holmes.
I watched Holmes from the time he beat Earnie Shavers the first time, through his title reign and also his various comebacks. His decline at the time he faced Spinks was dramatic compared to his heyday fights against the likes of Norton and Cooney (and that was the younger, undefeated and hungry Cooney...not the washed up, semi-retired, and drug using Cooney of the Spinks and Foreman fights) and then he retired for almost 2 two years and took the Tyson fight without even a tune up. Holmes was a former great champ who had been in decline 5 years prior to the Tyson fight.

And before you bring up the Mercer and Holyfield fights...Mercer's career was a dictionary definition of "hot and cold" fighter...he had good performances and some really bad ones. And as Holyfield-Holmes...Holmes lasted the distance in a decent fight, but Holyfield at heavy was hardly a big puncher or a dominant fighter, so it wasn't a huge surprise that Holmes went the distance...especially when Holyfield had previously been forced to go the distance with another 40-something in George Foreman.

As for Spinks...he wisely moved up at the right time when Holmes' reflexes had slipped to the point where Spinks could outmanuver him. And then after possibly getting lucky on the scorecards in the rematch....Spinks proceeded to sit on his title and let Tyson clean up the division before taking that fight and the big payday. If Spinks has defeated even ONE legit contender from the time after the Holmes rematch to the Tyson fight, then MAYBE I could see giving him the rating that you do. But he didn't. And then when he finally got in the ring with a heavy that wasn't 5 seconds from retirement (Holmes), riddled with drug and confidence issues (Cooney) or lucky to be mediocre (Tangstad), he didn't make it out of the first round. I wasn't at all suprised that Tyson handled Spinks as easily as he did.

 

I do not rate the Tyson-Spinks fight at all. Spinks, I will always believe, laid down like a beta dog. He point-blank refused to rise, & made a show of falling into the ropes. It was appalling.

However, & say what you must about Holmes' age, inactivity, & weight, I still think there is at least a little credit to be found in the fact no one ever did that to the Assassin, before or since. Was Holmes as good as he had been in his pomp, or even when he fought Spinks? No. Was he as good as the version who, with his, "sealegs" back under him, decisioned Mercer & took Holyfield the distance? Nuh-uh. However, never before. Never again. Just for that one night, & that one man, he was blasted.

Maybe not deserving of a lot of credit, but to completely write it off wholesale, I do not agree with.

 

word.

glad i'm not the only one who sees it that way

 

However, I take nothing from Tyson. He can't gain much from that night, but you can't ask a man to do more than he did under the circumstances.

That look Spinks gives Cappuccino while flat on his back stays with me to this day. Not daze. Not hurt. Just pure, unadulterated fear. He tanked it.

 

Yup. Spinks quit before the fight began. You could see it in his eyes on the ring walk as all he did was talk to his entourage instead of focussing on the task at hand. Plus, rumour has it, he almost quit in his dressing room before the fight through fear and butch lewis had to convince him to walk to the ring.

 

Fair enough. I'll defer to my elders and consider myself educated.::