Most despicable fighter in history?

oh - that's what it is? well that certainly doesn't apply when it comes to margarito. i was able to watch pretty unobstructed his lobbing off of Lujan's ear.

 

No, that's the opposite.

I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt. I think he should be banned from boxing for life. I just like to point some of this stuff out, because it's being purposely ignored.

 

Jake: I wouldn't be too offended. It's only me saying these things. ::

 

It seems like you are willing to give Margarito the benefit of the doubt. You're unwilling to take it for granted that he cheated several times. Rather, you're more comfortable entertaining doubt, based on these other factors, that he did. That's separate from whether or not you think he should be banned from boxing.

 

Compared to the end of the 9th in each fight? He had done more damage by the end of 9 in the first, but he'd landed 25% more punches by that point. I'm not trying to defend him just that as I get older & hairier I'm less inclined to jump to conclusions on things. I think he loaded, but we dunno

 

Boxingscene has nearly three years worth of stories on the subject. Cotto, Arum, Margarito, Capetillo, Cintron, Kizer, the CSAC, Mosley, Richardson... very little that wasn't unearthed along the way.

Several of our staff members have interviewed Martinez. Whenever asked about the wraps, he all but refuses to answer, instead insisting that he'd love a rematch in the event Margarito wins. Unfortunately (for Martinez), such interviews preceded Margarito's fights w/ Pacquiao and Cotto, two fights he knows whose chances of happening are slim-to-none.

On Margarito himself, the overall problem I have is the suggestion that what took place on Saturday is a direct result of one fighter not being afforded the opportunity to cheat.

Those same people ignore the fact that he's barely won rounds in a significant fight since Cotto I, and took two severe beatings prior to the rematch, including one that required two surgeries for his damaged eyes. Even in his lone win since then, he looked shitty enough to convince Arum that he wasn't much of a threat for Pacquiao.

I take no issue with your insistence that he's been cheating that far back, and respect your take on the Clottey and Williams fights. That's all I was really looking for, a reasonable case to be made.

 

I have "purposely" decided that the two Cotto fights and the Mosley fight should be looked at. Looking at fights from before that are useless as evidence. Too remote, the opponents are too varied, some guys he fought he could have murdered them to death with pillows on his fists. Other guys, stylistically, he wouldn't have been able to land the same punishment, or they didn't commit and he just hit elbow and gloves all night.

Cotto I, Cotto II and Mosley. That's our area of concentration.

Anything else is a waste of time.

 

As far as arum siding with margarito, that could be as simple as his knowing cotto's gonna ditch tr, or that he' s closer to tony's manager, or his simply wanting to protect boxing's rep.

 

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Never a boring thread when Irish is around.

 

<strike>Mowgli</strike> Monzon never laid a finger on her. :nono: And who put the bend in the road? That wasn't there the last time. :nono: I heard Monzon was in front at the time of the stoppage. :laughing:

 

If you had to put money on it, where would it lie?

I'm not one for idle speculation myself: I'm very much in the 'Pac is not on PED's because not one single piece of concrete proof has ever been offered to the contrary' camp, but with Marg it is different. He was caught. It may have been a one off, perhaps, but it seems so utterly bizarre that he would cheat against a guy he was heavily favoured to beat but not cheat against a guy he was heavily favoured to lose to. I'm not willing to speculate on earlier fights, but the Cotto fight to me is very, very questionable.

IMO you are a knowledgable and respectable writer. Do you not find the whole Cotto business very dubious?

MTF

 

I completely agree.

MTF

 

Alright, here's my thing: gun to my head, I'd suspect in retrospect that he cheated in the Cotto fight.

However, here is why I see the other side of it...

I know for a fact he skimped on training camp prior to Mosley. Spent too much time celebrating, not enough time in the gym. Wasn't so much the opponent for which he sought an edge, but the fight itself since coming off of a career-best win.

I don't stick my head in the sand and pretend that it's the only time it could have occurred. I just don't get what Arum would gain by defending him, what Keith Kizer would gain by lying for him, and I also don't try to diminish the fact that he's now seriously on the decline.

 

I don't buy this line about Margarito landing fewer punches in the second fight because his eye was bad.

Morales was blind in one eye for almost the entire Maidana fight. N

Not only did he survive the 1st round, he came back to land his best punches of the fight AFTER losing the vision in his eye.

So, one might dismiss this.....Morales a better fighter than Margarito, Cotto a better fighter than Maidana. I would counter that Morales was still blind in one eye and ancient as hell when he was lead-left-hooking Maidana around the shop, and Maidana at 140 would have given Cotto a very good fight. These weren't bums.

 

Yeah, good call, now that I think about it there's no way having one eye would hurt your accuracy.

 

:doh:

 

:atu:

But it didn't, you stupid fucking cunt.:atu:

Morales had more success AFTER the eye injury, and got hit less after the eye injury, with Maidana being forced to go downstairs to find an easier target.

Thicko.:Thumbs:

 

You have to love it, this pseudo-intellectual, frat-boy-philosophy, this "friend of the working man" attempt to get people to "consider all the facts". Henry Steve Dave Fonda, 12 Angry IQ Points This is what is tearing boxing up- people turning a blind eye {::} and trying to pass it off as cultured, measured objectivity. Who in their right mind with invoke the commentary of Bob Arum in this, and rely on it as some sort of evidence in Margarito's favour? The same Bob Arum who wouldn't pay outstanding monies to the widowed-mother of Duk Koo Kim, preferring to hide behind fancy accounts??? These are not reliable sources.

 

No, I agree with you... Morales landing more punches in the last 11 and a half rounds than he did before he got going in the first round is compelling evidence.

 

You're losing it again, mate.

 

12 and half rounds in a fight now is there? Neat.

He landed his best shot in the 4th round when his eye was completely closed- a closed eye being supposedly the reason why Margarito couldn't get off his windmill shit in the Cotto fight.


Surely it is easier to establish the windmill with one closed eye than to land single lead left hooks {with a closed eye}???

Surely not getting the other eye pounded shut over the next 11 rounds when already blind in one eye is proof that its possible to negotiate the course and avoid punishment??

Margarito cheated. Live with it. Stop digging up crap and trying to pass it off objective compelling reasons to think otherwise.

 

Jaysus, get some new material. opcorn:

 

Who's saying a closed eye would stop a fighter from landing at all?

I've been nothing but cordial throughout this thread. You don't like it, fine. There's a bunch or other stuff worth looking at, and I stand by that.

 

WRONG. Wrong approach. Look at three fights and three fights alone. Moving too far either side of those three fights is to introduce an exculpatory degree of remoteness which gives Margarito a walk he doesn't deserve.

Anecdotal shit about what a promoter said or what HBO said or what Capetillo said is all inadmissible- its only worked in to obfuscate the matter.

 

I haven't once based anything on what any of Arum, HBO or Capetillo said.

I'm not alone on this one. Good, thoughtful posters like Hut and Jake see it the same way. We're not dismissing the possibility Margarito was a repeat offender. In fact, we all think it's likely he loaded for the first Cotto fight.

 

"It's likely...but".:wack:

Boxing needs to get its house in order.

This notion that Margarito is being "defamed"- fine, let the son of a bitch sue. Let's see him that the stand and be cross-examined.

Worse things have been said about better fighters who did less wrong.

 

That's fine. I'm not angry that you guys think the way you do.

 

I'm not angry with any one individual-bar Margarito. I am however very angry with a general mood which seeks to visit this "Habeas Corpus" onto what are essentially "street" situations. We are obliged to use our intuition when dealing with the matter because, thanks to boxing being fucked, we have been denied a court-hearing which would shed a great deal more light on the matter.

Always remember what Richardson said: he thought the Mosley fight was OFF and that Margarito was going to the can for attempted assault.

Not only did that not happen, but it runs from there that we got a guy CAUGHT with loadedgloves {happens a lot I hear :laugh11:} who goes on to fight Mosley, gets paid, and then picks up three more paydays, two of which are very lucrative exclusive PPV dates, when the first Cotto fight ended with the previously unbeaten Cotto barely recognizable.

Now, in Baseball, which doesn't involve hitting anyone with loaded gloves, they had an entire hearing over some Ped's

But boxing? No chance.

 

I'm with you 100% on everything that happened post Mosley. I can see why they went ahead with the Mosley fight (20,000 paying fans already packed into Staples)

But he should have been banned from boxing once it was confirmed those wraps were coasted in plaster of paris. No question - the only reasonable solution was a lifetime ban. The fact Arum (scum) forced him back onto the scene (purely for money) was a crock. Margarito never should have been in the position to get those pay days.

Although, I have to admit, I do find it odd that in another thread you said more people should have purchased the Cotto/Margarito rematch. More buys = more cash in Marg's pocket.