In championship terms, though, he's still virtually a novice. He's also in a division where there are lots of good fights available, so two or three years could be a long time in terms of securing legacy defining fights. The same applies to Bradley, who is only really starting out at the highest level. He is also in a really stacked division, so who knows what the next few years might bring. I accept your point though. In terms of top 20 or so ATG's, there are very little in the way of potential candidates out there save Mayweather Jr and Pacquiao. MTF
They'll come by, don't worry. The greats come when everyone is unsuspecting. I'm confident that we'll have another crossover star in less than 5 years. At first, a lot of people will doubt and will call him a hype job but he'll keep proving them wrong. I believe.ray:
You know, if it had not been for a recent European influx, white americans would still be getting owned and ridiculed anyway, so what's your point exactly?, that there would be nothing wrong with the sport?. :crafty:
But they haven't come for a full decade. How much more unsuspecting can we get? Boxing as a talent pool has simply dried up, by the looks of things. 70's - Duran, Leonard, Monzon, Hagler, Benitez, Arguello, Canto, Cervantes, Loche, Gomez, Foreman, Zarate, Holmes etc 80's Hearns, Spinks, Chavez, Pryor, Whitaker, Tyson, Holyfield, Sanchez, McCallum 90s Lewis, De la Hoya, Jones, Hopkins, Lopez, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Tszyu, Calzaghe 00s Marquez, Dawson, Hatton, Bradley, Bute, Cotto, Kratingdaenggym, Taylor, Pavlik, Berto Granted it takes a few years before we can tell how good some of these guys are....but the question is really whether they might surprise us and become B+ guys - none of them are greats, that's for damn sure. Yikes.ray:
When you put it like that its rather alarming. JMM, Dawson, Hatton, Bradley,Dawson, Cotto, and the Klitschkos are really the cream of the decade's crop. Don't start this thread over at BF, Rebel will take this over the top
In america, maybe. But whole regions that was closed for boxing previously has been opened fairly recently (eastern bloc, the recent influx of cubans, etc.). Eastern european and russian boxers may not seem to be the real deal, they are not flashy, but they were very successful in the amateur scene when they were only allowed to compete there. The fact that they - a bunch of not very impressive looking boxers - are fairly successful in the pro game doesn't necessarily mean the the talent pool is drying up, it means that their style is fairly effective against the more traditional, flashy, and probably more entertaining styles. This makes it seem that the overall quality has gone down, but it is not necessarily the case imo. The fact is, there is a huge source of talent pool that was not there before.
And what have they produced in the last ten years? A single hall of fame worthy champion in the 00s? Forgive me if your observation doesn't have me celebrating the berlin wall falling anew. *edit* actually the Klits will probably make it. For the grand achievement besting a division of clinically obese deadbeats.
Well, hall of famers are usually fighters that stand out from the rest. If the quality of the overall competition is higher, it will be harder to stand out. I'm not saying this is the explanation, but it can be factor. I refuse to believe the overall quality will go down when there is a huge influx of new talents. Also, the feeling that boxing is going down, there are no stars left was there with every generation. After Ali and the heavyweight bunch were approaching retirement, the same sentiments were said, even though the fab four was already there. After the fab four was starting to get old, the same. But as Baron said, there will always be new stars.
You know what is even more alarming....put your mind to it and then tell me that either of the Klitschkos could not have picked up a title from 1900-1960, or 1980-Present. Yet 1900-1960 is full of guys we are supposed to revere and worship. :shit: And thats before we get down to arguing about whether Wladimir and Vitali would actually have any difficulty beating the shit out of Ellis, Quarry, Norton, Page, maybe even Foreman. Its no shame to have guys like the K bros as Heavyweight Champs....only a moron picks Louis or Marciano vs either.
I agree with you on the Klitschko's, but except for them and JMM the list from the 00's decade seems distinctly lacking when compared to other decades imo.
I don't disagree. Thats why, IMHO, Super 6 and 24/7 and other gimmicks like that have been established- to promote, in one instance collectively and in the second instance individually, not just the sport, but it's combatants.. Take Super 6. A lot of guys who could probably beat a lot of the old-timers in a 160-168 catchweight fight. But there is no drama or promotion or excitement around either fighter. This is remedied by pooling them all together. Winner is probably a HoF'r especially if he is reassuringly American and even though that fighter will have avoided other fighters. If Ward wins it, he could conceivably do so without fighting either of Froch or Abraham. Who will care? Nobody. Why? "Cos he won Super 6, man" now if Ward was a regular old champion, and spent his time avoiding Abraham or Froch, people would say "he aint fought Froch...he needs to fight Froch or there is a question mark". Super 6 avoids that. It's a gimmick.....but the winner comes out of it with incredible appeal.
Not when they started, but their primes were in 00's: Morales, Barrera, Marquez, Mayweather, Pacquiao, Klitchkos, Calzaghe, maybe even Hopkins. That doesn't seem that bad.
Not by the actual way of measuring it that works (body fat % which the WHO uses as the measure). In fact he'd be in the bottom 10th percentile of the populous, I'd imagine. Most these current guys literally are overweight by any measure.
Read post 36 again. I think the point that the talent has dried up alarmingly is pretty incontestable, based on that. Closing our eyes and going 'lalalalalala' doesn't change that! Though it may just be best to acknowledge it and change the subject....
But the point is that all those guys are fading off pretty soon or already have faded off and there hasn't been any new generation that has replaced them. The group that will replace them is sufficiently lacking.
I know, but we don't know yet what the currently establishing and upcoming talents will achieve during their carreer. Ward, Gamboa, Rigondeaux, the other cuban prospects, maybe even Khan and Direll are very talented, they can still do great things. Also there are some talented prospects like Dimitry Pirog, Rakhim Chakhiyev, Deontay Wilder, etc. and a couple of more nobody ever heard of. Many greats in the past came frome nowhere before they got noticed as dominant champions. I don't think the talent is particularly lacking.
You were right about the rest-although the breadth of talent pools across the divisions isn't impressive in many cases...also I would worry about the absence of marketable fighters or stars among those talents you mentioned, those capable of igniting the public imagination, more than just marginal sport interest..but thats a different thread
Yup, fo SURE. As I said, incontestably SURE. If you're seriously telling me that Ward, Berto, Bute, Dawson, Kessler etc are ever gonna blossom into greats on the level of Jones, Floyd, Whitaker, Leonard, Sanchez, Monzon etc you're absolutely deluding yourself. The naughties have drawn a NAUGHT in terms of new ATG talent we didn't already know of in the 90s. A naught in terms of talent of the level that every previous decade produced in the dozens to scores. Bottom line. Granted it may yet throw up ONE - I mean Pac came out of almost nowhere, and there may be one similar diamond in the rough we're all overlooking. But that kind of occurrence is exceedingly rare.
Those are decent prospects. And you're right we don't know jsut how great they will be yet. But Dimitry Pirog? Khan? Dirrell and Ward? No way man - those guys don't measure up to the fighters of the prior decade by a long shot. I think Gamboa could be something special, but that;s it. Slim pickins
Yeah, Cloud's the pick of the bunch for my money. Very solid technically solid/balanced guy who can fight inside and out well. Rate him more highly than Dawson. He's gonna be a solid champ. A special one by todays standards..... So yeah, Cloud's a pleasant chank of light, right now, I'd probably have him p4p No3 right now, as unjustified as that might seem. That said he is 28, so he's as good as he's gonna get.
Too bad Dawson is going to beat him. Dawson - Undefeated, notables Tomaz Adamek, Glengoffe Johnson(twice), Antonio Tarver(twice), Eric Harding, soon to be Jean Pascal for Ring LHW title. Sounds like a great to me.
