Not to mention LeBron left Cleveland because his 60+ win teams couldn't reach the finals. Again...which illustrates how putrid the eastern conference has been. Every year multiple sub .500 teams make the playoffs while multiple over .500 teams don't make it out West.
With irving for 70+ games and the rest of the talent Cleveland had this year, a young tim Duncan would've lead them to 60+ wins. Even with the current Duncan they would've made the playoffs easy
Even if we accept your premise and agree that winning is what counts the most and separates the very best from the greats, it still doesn't make sense that you only count the times when a palyer has reached the finals. Think about it: if a player A wins two championships and gets eliminated in conference finals in the next three, he still remains unbeaten and winner (2-2). However, if player B wins two championships and WINS conference finals next three years, he becomes a non-winner at 2-5. So I ask again, how can you possibly claim that a player who loses in the finals is WORSE than a player who loses at semi-finals? This is what your counting system means. For it to be even a little bit fair, Jordan should be 6 out of 15 and Lebron 2 out of 12 (assuming he loses this year). Also, correct me if I am wrong but you also rank Scottie Pippen above Bird, Lebron and Wilt, correct? Since he is undeniably a great player (among at least the top-30 all time), played a key role in his teams and is a six time champion, which lifts him well above the rest
Of course. But im talking about the finals, without irving. With the team that he is playing with right now.
A young tim Duncan with an above average caliber small forward instead of James (the level of Tristan thompson ) leads the same cavs team out of the east
:: who gives a fuck? you gonna hang your hat on losing a series but not getting swept? Duncan has a greater impact on team's success than james because defensively he is more of a factor. rim protectors are always more valuable.
a young tim duncan would dominate the paint on both ends vs golden state. they would need to keep bogut or at least one big man in the game at all times to guard him and it would affect the tempo of the game
Jordan Also had BETTER Teammates than Bron's EVER Had in an NBA Finals... DWade was Already on the DECLINE when Bron Took his Talents to Souf' Beach...There were Remnants of Prime Wade During Bron's Inaugural Season w/the Heat, but After that, Wade was a SHELL of Himself...Give REED Prime Scottie Pippen over ANY Version of DWade, Bron Played w/.... Fuuuuuuurthermore, Jordan Didn't Have a SOFT Ass "Power" Forward like Bosh Either...He had Horace Grant for 3 Rings and Dennis Rodman for 3 More...BIG Difference...Jordan's Finals Teams were Never PLAUGED w/the Injuries to the Degree Bron's Teams have Been, as Well... It's Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay Tooooooooooooooooo SIMPLISTIC to Say "Jordan is 6-0 in the Finals, Bron is 3-3 (or 2-4 if Golden State Prevails)"....There's MUCH More To it than That, Muzse.. As for Wilt, it's a GIVEN his Level of Competition WASN'T On Par w/that of Jordan or Bron's...Sure, Wilt Would Be a DOMINANT Center in Today's NBA, but he Ain't Averaging 22 Boards a Game... Sorry... Neither Jordan NOR Wilt Went to 5 STRAIGHT Finals...6 in the 12 Years he's Been a Pro...Literally HALF of Dude's Career has Ended in an NBA Finals Appearance... REED:cheer:
The Cavs are in the position they are in not because of domination in the paint on both ends of the floor. Someone needed to orchestrate the team to do what it has done. Tim isnt taking over a game by himself man. If Lebron and Duncan were on the same team, duncan would be listening to Lebron for instruction
The Award Designates "The Most VALUABLE Player", Which has Clearly Been LeBron James...Hands Down... Jerry West Won a Finals MVP in a Losing Effort...History SHOULD Repeat Itself This Year...Why, Because Golden State is Putting Forth More of a TEAM Effort...Their BENCH has Been Every Bit as "Valuable" as Steph Curry has Been, this Series... REED:hammert:
9 Times Out of 10, Scottie Pippen Guarded the Opposing Teams BEST Perimeter Player AND he Did the Bulk of the Ballhandling/Distributing... Jordan Did the Heavy Lifting on OFFENSE... REED:cheer:
Unless You're Prepared to Say Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Bird and Magic are ALL Better than Wilt Chamberlain, your "Rings" Logic is Flawed... REED:kidcool:
This... Kobe WASN'T Even the Best Player on his Own Team, for 3 of his Championships, yet he Gets Rated HIGHER than Bron???... NOT... REED:nono:
And over half of those finals appearances ended as losses. If he gets his team to the Finals he's got to close the deal. At the top level there's no consolation for 2nd place. "Like I said before" I'm willing to bet Bron would give up MVP's for titles. Also note what I'd said about Jordan having to deal with great Celtic and Piston teams. Bron never had to deal with great teams like that so there's no reason he shouldn't get to the finals every year. Lastly, I don't necessarily buy into the "level of competition" argument because there were fewer teams. If anything it works the opposite way. Fewer teams means better guys the further you get down the bench. More teams dilutes the talent similar to how more weight classes and sanctioning bodies dilutes what a "champion" means in boxing. Again, it's simply my opinion. I'm not saying my opinion is right or wrong, it's just how I feel about it. I'm not disrespecting anyone else's thoughts.
Kobe won an additional two titles without Shaq and is now the 3rd best scorer in NBA history. Certainly counts for something. Speaking of which, I wouldn't rank Bron over Shaq either.
Lebron has only beat 7 teams in the playoffs with 50+ wins and only one with 62+ wins. Jordan beat 20 with 50+ and Four teams in the finals with 62+ wins. The heat were heavily favored in 2011 against the Mavs and they got embarrassed including a game where Lebron scored 8 points. He basically got outplayed over the series by Jason Terry. Also it took Lebron until his third finals appearance to score 25 points in a game. Jordan had 6 championships in 13 years with the Bulls. If the cavs lose this series Lebron is 2 for 6 in 12 years and he will be a Ray Allen miracle from being 1-5.
Jordan Played Against those Celtic Teams @ the Tail Ends of their Primes...But Credit where Credit is Due; Jordan Played & BEAT the Very Best Detroit Pistons Teams, a Squad Better than ANYTHING Bron's Squared Off Against in the East... Still, Jordan's ROSTER was Superior to Bron's ROSTER, Dog...Man for man, Position by Position, Jordan's Bulls Teams were Better...Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeper...There's just No Way You Can Disregard 1 Man Carrying 2 Different Teams to the Finals, in the Span of 5 CONSECUTIVE Years...If it were THAT Easy, Many More Players Would have Accomplished it by Now... There are More GOOD Basketball Players Today, than there was in Wilt's Day, Muzse...The Point Guard, 2 Guard, Small and Power Forward Positions have NEVER Been Deeeeeeeeeeeper than they Are Today...ELITE Guys like Wilt, Russell, Big O, etc., Would've Been ELITE Guys Today...But Big O Ain't Averaging a 30pt Triple Double Over an 82 Game Season and Wilt Ain't Averaging 30pts and 22boards... Unless You REALLY Think the Game HASN'T Evolved @ All, in the Last 45+ Years... REED:dunno:
Bron Never Has and Never Will have a Teammate as Great as Prime Shaq, yet he ALREADY Has the Same Amount of Rings & MORE Finals Appearances than Kobe Does, Sans Shaq... REED:dunno:
Ironically the first year LeBron led the Heat to the Finals was when the East was actually respectable
It Shouldn't... To WIN an NBA Championship, you have to ADVANCE to the NBA Finals 1st...There IS Something to Be Said for GETTING There...Everybody Knows what the Ultimate Goal is, but CONSISTENTLY Getting There Can't Simply Be Dismissed... REED:nono:
Maybe, Maybe Not... Bron Would've DEFINITELY Won More than 3 Rings w/Shaq Though, AND the Most Talented Duo in NBA History Wouldn't have Mutually Parted Ways Over EGO, Either... Bron's ALREADY "Better", "Greater" (However You Wanna Word it) than Kobe Is... REED:kidcool:
