Objectively great fighters that don't pass the eye test

Wlad had a lot more talent and skill than Froch, that's why he was a greater fighter. He certainly didn't have Froch's chin, stamina, and mental toughness.

 

I would say that you can argue on both side concerning who was better between wlad and vitaly. Sure, vitaly was a lot less fragile than wlad, but he wasn't nearly as talented. His resume is also much shallower. I guess it depends on how much you rate vitaly performance against lewis. For me, it was much more impressive than blowout and washout against no hopers like ibragimov or pulev.

For what it's worth (not much), i also think vitaly would have raped wlad in a fight between the two

 

But when, say, Carl Froch comes back from defeats to top p4p fighters to win word titles against unbeaten champs, he doesn't show that he has intangibles, aye?

MTF

 

And let's not pretend that coming back from that brewster loss is a big display of intangibles. Poor wlad barely got hit in that fight, and threw himself on the canevas cause he was tired

 

Vitali was definitely better than Wlad. Wlad was more talented but Vitali was harder to beat.

 

As I said, Vitali was the closest in style to Monzon. Quite obviously, Carlos was a level above, but Vitali's style was the closest thing I've seen to Monzon's.

 

Fidel LaBarba, though his only footage is way past best weight and against Chocolate. 'Out there' boxers like Midget Wolgast also seem to divide people when they see the film.

Also, Froch > Calzaghe but Calzaghe beats him due to styles imo. People also seem to forget that Calzaghe had some severe underperformances in fights where he should've stomped and was extremely well managed for most of his career. Froch is as ballsy as it gets for a modern fighter in terms of consistent matchmaking.

 

That's actually a really good comparaison. Vitaly was probably a bit quicker p4p, but didn't punch as hard, but they have a lot of similarities

 

Pretty much my point throughout. AgREED.

MTF

 

I really.dont see how haye is better than Pascal, especially not a hw Haye. His resume and performance at hw are pretty terrible. The Chisora fight was a great win, but needing friendly judges to beat valuev and losing to Bellew is far from impressive.

 

Ill never get why people think that calz had the style to beat froch easily. Calzaghe always had troubled with guys who could use their strength and fight dirty. He looked absolutely terrible against Salem, Bika and bhop.

 

Calz was physically stronger than Froch, thats the problem for Carl. And he would exploit Froch's complete ineptitude as an infighter.

 

I don't believe that for second. Weve never saw guys outmuscling froch in the ring. Bika and Salem were both outmuscling jc. Now maybe these two guys were also stronger than froch, but the evidence for claiming calz was stronger are inexistant

 

Calzaghe was usually at his best against guys who had a.concentional style, or that were punching bags. Against the first, he could use his movement to befuddle them, and against the latter, his quick hands were landing often enough to make them reluctant to throw. Froch fits neither of these two archertypes. It would be a super ugly fight with tons of clinches, and not a lot of.clean punches

 

And Pascal's résumé at SMW is some form of Murderer's Row, is it? Haye lost to Bellew ten years past his best, while badly injured. Hardly indicative of his ability.

 

@ trying to puff up David Haye at HW as something worth boasting about. What is Haye's biggest achievement at HW? Barely beating a giant mongaloid? KO-ing Chisora? Beating up an absolutely ancient version of Ruiz? Punching a cardboard cut-out?

Haye was absolutely nothing at HW. He wouldn't trouble a top 50 all time HW list. And he probably is one of Wlad's best career wins. That how poor Wlad's era was.

And Pascal's win over Dawson alone pisses all over anything David Haye did, certainly at HW and probably at 200 with the possible exception of scraping himself off the canvas to beat Mormeck.

MTF

 

Haye did more at heavyweight than Pascal did at SMW and it isn't debatable in the slightest.

 

Yeah, because Pascal got beaten by Froch and moved out of 168 immediately afterwards instead of facing him again. He literally left town because he got beaten out of the town.

David Haye did nothing at HW worth bothering about. Nothing. And his 200 resume isn't exactly a murderer's row, either. His highlights are getting off the floor to beat a shopworn Mormeck, getting his face punched in by an ancient Carl Thompson and beating a man with the chin of a four-year-old girl who has since been KO-ed brutally more times than you can count.

His best win is Derek Chisora. That's how good David Haye was.

MTF

 

Haye was more talented than Pascal, but Pascal was tougher. Both physically tougher (chin), and a lot more heart.

The Dawson win shits on any Haye win. Chad was top 5 P4P at the time.

 

Exactly this. Pascal went to lhw cause he got a money/title fight against diaconu. Its not like he was killing himsel to get to 168 nor was he a different fighter. Very different situation than haye, considering the jump from cruiser to hw is the hardest one to make

 

Haye was a mental midget bitch. Wanted to be Ali so bad - none of Ali's intangibles.

 

Calling Haye a mental bitch is ridiculous. He showed a big heart repeatedly. You don't believe the toe excuse do you?

 

He got beaten so badly he almost won? Really makes sense that. Again, Pascal vs Froch was an extremely close fight.

Haye never achieved what he could've. Regardless, a win over Mormeck is nothing to snort at. And he was far from shopworn, moreover, he was coming off his career best win.

Anyway, the fact of the matter remains, for whatever reason, Pascal did jack shit at 168. Certainly less than Haye did at HW. Regardless of Pascal having the better win - which he does, no disputing that - Haye was clearly a better fighter. More talented, more explosive, and more skilled. Pascal was tougher, and let's not pretend like he hasn't obviously been on steroids his entire career.

 

Pascal didnt almost win against froch. It was a close but clear decision. Hell, even in QC nobody think it was that close of a fight. And what pascal did or didn't not do at 168 is fairly irrelevant. Yes he went to 175 soon after, but there's nothing to suggest he was draining himself to make 168, or that a fight between the two at 175 would be any different.

As for Haye being more talented or better than Pascal, it's clearly disputable. Pascal was a an athletic freak himself, and was much tougher than haye. Haye style was prettier ,ill give you that, but it means balls when it comes to being better. And resume wise, Pascal blows Haye out of the water. As for steroids, if you think Haye wasnt on them either, youre very naive

 

I've have never once heard or read anyone claim that Froch v Pascal was anything other than a clear win for Froch until now. It just isn't true, at all. Froch won a good, competitive affair without a hint of controversy.

Claiming otherwise is demonstrably false.

MTF

 

Seems like our little Georges is a bit biased against Froch. Kind of weird since he's usually high on british fighters

 

Honestly, give it up mate. This is abysmal.

MTF

 

I don't know about more skilled. Neither Haye nor Pascal would be confused with Harold Johnson in there. They both got by on athleticism. Haye was a bigger P4P hitter, and had faster hands P4P. Pascal, as I said, had more intangibles.

One was an Ali wannabe, and the other was a Roy wannabe. I didn't care for either.

 

Definitely a bigger puncher, but not so sure about the speed. Pascal was very fast himself, and ive always tought that haye speed, while good, was a bit.overrated

 

I've not got anything against Froch specifically, and I more started the debate between Wlad and Froch because I think Wlad is chronically underrated on here. Although the only thing me and MTF have agreed on in this thread is that Froch is a dickhead.

Anyway, it should be plain as fucking day that Wlad was a better fighter than Carl Froch. Wlad's losses in his prime, are all the result of a bad chin and that's it. Froch's loss to Ward is a direct result of being nowhere near good enough - smack bang in his prime. Same with Kessler, and same with his struggles against an ancient Johnson or a fighter like Dirrell. Wlad never had losses like that. Almost all of his losses or struggles are down to one weakness, poor punch resistance. And even with this weakness, he was still far better more accomplished than Froch ever was.

Re: Froch-Pascal/Pascal & Haye; I never actually said I thought Pascal won because I don't think he did. I thought Froch won a 7-5 decision in a very competitive affair - his stamina making the difference in the late rounds. However, when Pascal was one round away from a draw on my card, that to me, is close to winning. Whether you agree or disagree, I don't care. Pascal fought well vs Froch and was done a disservice by the official scores. I'm using the fact the fight happened at 168 as an analogy. Haye cut a lot of weight to get down to cruiser, and his stamina and chin suffered for it. Does anybody actually watch Haye vs Enzo, then Haye vs Harrison and think there was a marked difference in ability due to the weight? It's exactly the same situation as Pascal was in at 168 - although Pascal wasn't cutting and Haye was. As for talent, one thing which has to be said is Pascal was athletic but less so than Haye. Haye was far more aggressive but only got sloppy when he had someone hurt, and he was a lightning fast puncher with far more power than Pascal. Neither had great stamina, although Haye's while not cutting was better. Pascal had a better chin, but he wasn't toucher mentally. The way he bowed out vs Kovalev is far more damning than the Wlad fight, and he never showed heart like Haye did in the first Bellew fight. I highly doubt he'd be loaded up on roids like he was if he was so mentally tough. Haye's set-ups from his head-movement were cool, and he was a good counter-puncher. Neither were particularly good fundamentally. Haye was no all-time great; and he had an ultimately disappointing career, but he was ranked the third best heavyweight in the world and was the best man Wlad could've faced. Jean Pascal on the other hand was rated tenth by Ring. Haye is a better fighter, and a better win. I'm not saying any more about it because I've spent far too much time typing about two fighters I couldn't give a fuck about.