Pacquiao running scared from Marquez!

I think you're leaving Pacquiao's straighter and faster punches out of the equation here Musze. Yes, Valero is powerfull, but he loops his punches and even though he looked fast in these sparring sessions, his punches are often telegraphed. I think Pacquiao would get his straight left in there more often than not before Valero's looping right hook or his looping left hand reaches Pac. Also, Pac may not be a dancer but I'd say he moves in and out fast enough to methodically beat up Valero. Right now, I'd pick Pac without blinking.

 

I'd also venture to say that if Pac and Valero throw a right hook at the same time, Pac's hook get there first.

 

It depends on the distance and whether Valero could time Pac as he came in...I fully expect him to be able to do this.

Plus, he countered well when going backward and that's a damn hard thing to do and have power on his punches...Valero has shown the ability to do this.

Lastly, while Pac throws straighter punches, when he misses he's horribly off balance. A well timed counter puts Pac on his ass.

 

Good points. But none of the guys he countered going backward had the explosiveness of Manny Pacquiao. I think you might be under estimating Pacquiao's ability to land his shot on the pretty open Valero but I must admit that I might be underestimating Valero's ability to put Pacquiao in vulnerable positions when he (Valero) gets on the backfoot. I agree that if he can do that consistently, it won't matter if he loops his punches or not, he'll land.

 

And by not knowing how each would handle the others strengths, that's what makes it such a great fight.

We've already seen Pac and what he can do against JMM & MAB. Both have gotten older and slower. The only thing that would change is how much easier he'd dispatch of both.

Pac-Valero is the best fight at 130.

Pac vs Guzman would be a good scrap if Guzman looked to fight and not be cute with Manny.

I bet Valero catches Manny with uppercuts as he goes back. If that's the case, looping punches aren't a factor.

 

I agree 100%.

 

I have now seen most of his pro fights, including the last few, and the guy doesn't have good handspeed, not even close.

He isn't even a good counter puncher, nor is his timing anything special. He has hardly any skill.

He has less skill and technique than mayorga. In fact, mayo at 154 seriously has faster hands than valero. Which of his pro fights have you seen?

Valero has heavy hands, and that's IT. His fight with bando is very funny, and a fun beating, but he is not on pacman's level.

His defense is shit too, have you seen the mosquera fight?

Pacman would steamroll him.

 

Also Musze, as you know all the way from the SO days, I love attacking fighters, they are pretty much the only fighters I like. Attacking fighters with skill, that's why Duran is my favourite of all time, and that's why I love Morales, Chico, Pacman etc.

So my point is, I have no reason to dislike valero at all, he is an attacking fighter, and he is damn funny looking ::

But he is simply not much good, I have seen most of his pro fights, and I still just can't understand how you can mention his handspeed.

The first thing I noticed when I saw him fight is DAMN this guy is slow for a 130 pounder, his punches are VERY telegraphed and he has the handspeed of a middleweight.

 

We'll have to disagree then. I can't for the life of me understand how you can say the guy is slow. More importantly, the comparison to Mayorga is ridiculous.

The only thing I can think of is you're confusing Valero with Ponce De Leon. That guy is slow and has awful technique. Even that doesn't make sense because De Leon fights at 122.

And yes I saw the fight with Mosquera on YouTube. I thought it was a good scrap and it illustrates how Manny could have success against him. Conversely, it shows how an aggressive fighter coming towards him will get caught coming in.

That's why I want to see Pac-Valero. I think most will be surprised at how competitive the fight is. No matter who the winner is, the fight is guaranteed to end by KO.

 

No clearly I am not confusing him with anyone, I've seen almost all of his fights, including the mosquera fight in good quality.

In which of his fights has he looked fast exactly?

Valero is slow of hand and foot, and his punches ARE telegraphed, he clearly has naturally heavy hands but he really pushes his punches out there, they are not fast or snappy.

 

Comparing Valero to Mayorga is not ridiculous at all. Valero beat Mosquera who is pretty good, but valero was knocked down, stunned and took a LOT of punches in that fight. He won by stoppage fair and square, and showed a fair amount of toughness down the stretch, but I was not really impressed.

Mayo decimated six heads, and KO'd forrest.

So far valero isn't as proven as mayo and hasn't got a win on the level of forrest.

 

I'm literally watching the sparring video with Morales as I type...his hands aren't slow. Mind you, it's sparring and they're not going full speed either. Valero's a good reflexsive counterpuncher. That can't be taught. Either yopu have it or you don't.

Like I said in an earlier post, his fundamentals went downhill once he stopped sparring in the L.A. area. He's not as good technically as he used to be but the handspeed is still there.

Valero's one of the few guys who can step back and punch with power. Manny can only fight in one direction and that's moving forward. Defensively he's got tons of holes, but so does Manny...that's why this is a great fight.

 

Valero is pretty quick, he has shown flashes of skill and timing....but its also pretty clear that he's regressing. He shows none of his obviously available technique in his fights and simply loves to throw that left hand.

He sure is quick though. No doubt. Also, he's fifty times as skilled as Mayorga ever was.

I also think he's more skilled that Corrales. Diego had one really good skill; punching technique. He trumps Valero rather bad there. But Chico's footwork was poor, his defense non existent, he didn't throw a jab and his right hand wasn't natural.

Doesn't mean he couldn't fight. Just means I don't think he belongs in a discussion of 'skilled attacking fighters'.

 

I don't care about the sparring session, just tell me let's say in his last 6 pro fights, which one is a good example of his handspeed in your opinion?

 

Did you read my post where I talked about the Lozada KO?

I addressed already.

I'm pretty sure that's the fight...I'll take another look at it when I get home.

 

Valero obviously has handspeed.

 

Thank you.

I think MWS is extremely offbase with his assessment of Valero. That's whyt I thought he possibly had him confused with Ponce De Leon.

 

Diego's punching skill was phenominal. His timing, accuracy, and short range power was superb. Your right his footwork was terrible and he was 1 dimensional, but his attacking skill was second to none.

Valero's defense is bad, he is very hittable.

And tam - how about you? In which of his last 5 or 6 pro fights has his handspeed looked good? I think he looks proper slow, and it's only recently I finished watching his most recent fights. His punches are laboured and telegraphed, but I admit he has real power, for sure.

Pacman's punches are about 10 times faster.

 

You're all fucking mad, I wondered if I was the crazy one, but no...

Please - look at this fight now, it's the 3rd, yes only the 3rd round of the mosquera fight...

Look how slow and sloppy his right jab is, look how telegraphed and slow his straifght left is, and look how FUCKING slow and clumsy his right hook is, my god. How can you say this fighter is fast? How how how?

Please, just look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MPNmAg7_5E

 

Valero is not a bum, but his punches are too telegraphed to beat anyone at the elite level. He went life and death with a guy who had a 50% knockout percentage, and was put on queer street. Valero has very average hand speed, and added to the fact that he loops his punches, he would get beatup by any decent 130 pounder.

I'd venture to say that Pacquiao, Morales, Barrera, Soto, and Fagquez would beat him now, no problem. It would be fun to watch though. :clap:

 

It's interesting you post the round Valero was knocked down in...how about the first round when Mosquera goes down twice (granted, the first KD wasn't much) or how about posting the end of the fight when Valero was teeing off on him.

::

 

We know your record with Pacquaio...you're DQ'd from the convo from the onset.

::

 

Yes, thankyou, finally someone else who sees sense. His punches are very telegraphed, and often downright clumsy. I would honestly go as far as to say his handspeed is below average.

Even shot Morales I would pick over Valero, and Marquez and Barrera for sure.

 

That's completely beside the point, I just picked a fight that was fresh in my mind. I could not find the first round or the full fight on youtube, only that round.

I'm giving an example of his handspeed before he is knocked down, the clip ends when he goes down, so it's not relevant at all.

Simply look at his handspeed, honestly, just look at his jab, straight left and right hook. They are fucking slow and clumsy.

 

Who has Valero beaten or faced that is on the elite level? :dunno:

 

Pacquiao KILLS Valero. Sends him back to Venezuela or wherever in a fucking coffin. Valero is not good. :kick:

 

While I'll defend Valero when I feel he's bee mislabed (as I'd do with any fighter not named Juan Manuel Marquez) I see next to no reason why he wouldn't be lit up by Manny Pacquiao. Badly.

 

Valero reminds me of Monzon - like Monzon, I think Valero is deceptively skilled. And no, I'm not saying Valero is as good as Monzon. But I do agree that hand-speed is not one of Valero's strong suits.

 

Monzon was also pretty slow of hand, but Monzon was technically very good. He was far more skilled than Valero.

I like King Carlos, and he sure as hell didn't throw the kind of retarded, sloppy, clumsy punches than Valero does.

Monzon's punches were slow-ish and somewhat telegraphed, but less so than the Medievil Monk, and that's the only similarity.

 

I don't know. I would definitely call some of Monzon's punches sloppy. Again, I'm not saying Valero is as good as Monzon. But I think he's wired similarly, and when Valero decides to box, he's in a rhythm similar to Monzon's - controlling distance, using the 1-2 with discipline, and keeping his opponent turning.