Top tier fighters who don't give a fuck about defense

So keeping your distance and holding your right hand up is not legal?

 

Sure against bums.

How did his punchstats look against Whitaker?

I wonder how his punchstats would have looked against a peak Sugar Ray Leonard.

Chavez's defense wasn't "excellent" in the slightest. He had decent defense for an aggressive fighter, but he was nowhere near as good as Duran defensively.

 

it is. but Wlad holds and nothing else. face it.

 

He does hold and lean at close. But what you are forgetting is that Wlad's bouts are fought mainly outside, so there is not as much holding as you suggest

 

Wlad isn't THAT bad. He ties up and does a bit of holding, but he mainly tries to keep distance. He doesn't actively try to grab and hump people like a Ruiz or Hatton.

 

agREED...

Chavez Sr. was ALOT of Things, but a "GOOD" Defensive Fighter ISN'T 1 of them...He Wasn't a HUMAN SPONGE ala Margarito or Andrade, but he WASN'T a "Good" Defensive Fighter Either...



REED:kidcool:

 

yes there is. anyone who "tries" against Wlad gets hugged all night.

 

ridiculous, Wlad is usually much taller and quicker than his opponent so his opponent can't do shit on the outside, and not because he has some good defense

 

Yep that's about the gist of it. Though like you said he wasn't a human punch bag in regards to hittability, anyone who thinks Chavez was an "excellent" defensive fighter is insane.

 

Wlad is bad. His fights are horribly boring because anytime his opponent is aggressive (a must for anyone with even a small chance of beating him), he grabs on for dear life like a bitch.

In his recent fights, his opponents have accommodated him by remaining outside (Chagaev's tactics were particularly ineffective).

But make no mistake - if a fighter gets close, Wlad hugs him like a bitch.

 

True, his dominance on the outside particularly amplifies the situation,.. I can understand people being tired of Wlad, his jab is a sweet shoot, but he wont fucking vary his offense, and is a suspected wraps-rigger aswell.

 

Yes, he was. For a guy who was going forward the majority of the time and in the pocket almost continuously in allot of fights he barely got hit with anything flush. His ability to deflect or slip shots so that if they didn't totally miss he avoided almost all their sting shouldn't be ignored just because he wasn't a slickster on the back foot. How totally unmarked he was after the majority of his early fights is testimony to that.

 

He wasn't even close to not getting hit as little as Duran while coming forward.

And like I said, take the level of opposition into consideration. Duran's defense would still look A class against top opponents, Chavez not so much.

 

I agree, that's why I thought it was an interesting subject.

Having no regards for getting hit and being a top fighter generally don't go together.

That's why Morales is the best example I can think of.

And yes he was a skilled fighter. When he was thinking about defense, he was good at slipping, parrying, feinting etc, but he was just too macho for his own good. A lot of the time he literally didn't seem to care about getting hit.

In a big fight, one of the only times I've seen him pay some attention to defense was against Pacquiao in their first fight, and he looked great there. But being El Terrible he couldn't resist a tear up in the 12th round ::

 

Duran was the best fighter of his type that ever lived.... Casamayor is nowhere near as good defensively as Whitaker - does that mean Casamayor belongs of a list of fighters who don't give a fuck about defense?

Bottom line - for a come forward infighter Chavez' defense was not only decent but damned impressive.

 

Indeed he was, and I think Chavez is miles behind him. They shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.

Barrera is a better example of someone who could come forward without getting hit much, so is Hagler.

And both Barrera and Hagler proved that against top opponents. Chavez looked HITTABLE against top opponents.

Again, just because he was adept at coming forward and slipping the shots of average fighters while attacking doesn't mean much, in the same way that having a 90% KO ratio against bums doesn't make you a monster puncher.

 

Ridiculous. Your theory only works if defense means defense inside. And if it does, even Cassius Clay didn't have much of a defense (I have always thought he had the best of heavyweight) since he very often held at close. Good defense means you don't get hit.

Also pretty much all long-armed guys break rules at close quarters. Wlad, Lennox and Ali held, Foreman pushed his opponents (equally forbidden) etc

 

The Fact that U had to QUALIFY the Statement Illustrates that Chavez WASN'T a "Good" Defensive Fighter...."Good FOR....."...That's DIFFERENT than JUST Being "Good"...

Chavez was Unmarked in Alot of his Early Fights Because his Opposition was PUTRID...WHO did Chavez Really Fight PRIOR to Azabache Martinez???....That Bout was a Certified SLUGFEST...Chavez's Defense WASN'T "Good" in that Bout....Hell, what about the 1st Round of the 1st Mayweather Fight???....What about the 1st Meldrick Taylor Fight???....

Chavez WAS a Great, GREAT Fighter, but Defense Certainly WASN'T his Strong Suit...



REED:nono:

 

Yep...The ONLY Guy that Ever Really TEE'd Off on Duran was Tommy Hearns....



REED:kidcool:

 

Funnily enough I thought of that even while I was writing that post.

Not only was Hearns a horrible style matchup for Duran, but that was just an odd fight for Duran, he looked like he didn't even really want to be there.

But yeah, apart from Hearns, Duran was very hard to hit clean, against excellent opponents. Even Hagler, who was very sharp offensively, found it difficult to catch Duran clean, and that was a 30's, plump, middleweight Duran.

Like you said, there is a pretty fucking big difference in how Chavez's defense looked between the bums he fought, and the good opponents he fought.

Even Hatton's defense can look decent against chumps.

 

Hatton's natural footspeed meant that he had a good defence, comparatively speaking, for a while. Then as he slowed down (or arguably moved up in comp, depending upon your POV) he started to get hit more and more, until Floyd and Manny ultimately sparked him.

MTF

 

The funny thing is, the whole tijuana taxi driver thing really isn't an exaggeration.

Even after 15 or 16 pro fights, Chavez were fighting guys, who had no pro fights, that's right - guys were dragged off the street and given a license, just to fight Chavez ::::

Look, here are 3 fighters that Chavez fought in a row, whose only fights were against Chavez.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=8128&cat=boxer

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=8129&cat=boxer

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=298140&cat=boxer

However, in his 18th pro fight, Julio really stepped it up a notch when matched hard against this guy

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=8123&cat=boxer

Then in Julio's 37th fight he once again took on a formidable fighter against the slick Puerto Rican Fragoso.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=8142&cat=boxer

 

good for a guy going forward. Thats a LEGIT qualification. Because you judge a guys defence in the context of its effectiveness within his style. Its easy to not take many punches if you fight like a fucking BITCH like Dirrel did the other week, or worse if you fight like Cotto did in the later rounds against Pac and dont even mount ANY offence. But you don't win allot of fights like that. If you're a perpetual aggressor and still manage to come out of fight after fight unmarked and unhurt then that takes proper defensive SKILL.

 

Hatton did have fast feet, but they more helped his offense.

He's not as hittable as some, but he's never had good defense, even against bums. Even though I think he tries to not get hit, he's just not very good at slipping/blocking punches.

 

I agree with this to an extent. It is much easier to NOT get hit running away, like goes without saying. It's much harder to avoid punches whilst coming forward and throwing punches yourself.

But in regards to this line...

Sure, it takes proper defensive skill, if your opponent isn't a complete bum.

 

I don't disagree with your point about his level of opponents early but I wouldn't trust boxrec in that sense. I believe in some small Mexican tournaments nobody has actually known how many bouts some trialhorse had fought. Zero in boxrec stats means zero that comissions know of (or nobody has tried to search for their records) but in this case it might be vastly different of how many times the guys had fought under professional rules.

 

Yep, I do know that, that they simply won't have the info on certain fighters. But they do seem to have info on a LOT of fighters, I mean really.

So I actually believe that a few fighters only had 1 pro fight against Chavez. They were literally taxi drivers given a license ::

 

So what? He fought a bunch of bums before he won his titles, who cares? Or even a few between title fights to keep sharp. That was part of the reason he was such a honed fighter by the time he got to world class because he had had 45 odd proper professional fights and had been busy, regardless of the calibre of the opposition. Frankly I'd sooner see more younger fighters taking a similar route rather than having protracted amateur careers with all the putrid effects on their styles that entails these days.

 

Well that was just me laughing at Chavez's level of opposition.

Personally I think it's pointless. You learn nothing by beating someone with no pro fights, less than you would against a decent amateur fighters, and I am by no means a fan of amateur fighting or the amateur style, you only need to look at Khan :kidcool:

But the point is, Chavez's defense only looked good against chumps. Chavez didn't look good defensively against any top opponent.

 

So Rosario, Fuentes, Ramirez, La Porte, mayweather etc were complete bums? Because I dont remember him taking allot of solid shots in those fights. Not very many at all in the context of just how many he was landing. He took a few, but he caught a WHOLE LOT more.