Trout vs Canelo

Agree. I liked Trout's chances against Alvarez and thought he fought a good fight in a losing effort, but couldn't understand the Trout beat Cotto, therefore he beats Alvarez talk that was going around.

If not over-rated, I think Cotto has been over-estimated for a long time.

 

I have little doubt that Canelo would stop Cotto.

 

i thought Canelo deserved the win despite it being a closer fight than the official scores. No matter, the right guy won the fight.

I picked Trout to win, and I don't think I underestimated Canelo I think I overestimated Trout. I expected better from him, especially considering all the talk that he and his camp were aware of how difficult it would be to get a decision in Texas... really not sure what their actual plan was for winning the fight.

Even if Trout had done better, Canelo probably still takes the fight, and he proved he could hurt Trout which was the big difference in the match imo.

 

Worth noting that the Cotto Trout fought was also a fairly shopworn version.

 

Also Worth Noting that Punching Power NEVER Wanes...Being UNABLE to Hurt Trout had NATHAN to Do w/Cotto Being "Shopworn"...

It WASN'T All that Difficult for Cotto to FIND Trout, Either...His Punches just LACKED the Effect Canelo's Did...




REED:hammert:

 

Yeah, but again, Cotto won his first title at 140. He was a small-ish welter & a tiny JM. Canelo is a big JM who will move up. Obviously at 154 their punches are going to have a different effect against another big, natural JM like Trout.

 

Precisely. Cotto is a heavy handed guy but he's a naturally smaller dude. People forget that. He's a smaller man and the fact of the matter is that all other things being equal, or pretty close, the bigger guy will have the heavier hands. Not maybe too much heavier but over 12 it all adds up.

 

It WASN'T Sooo "Obvious" to a Few Posters, just 2-3 Days Ago...




REED:dunno:

 

The same Cotto who one fight earlier gave Floyd a tough fight.

 

Just watched the fight. Random thoughts:

I had it 114-114 (10-8 + an even 10th), but I think Alvarez had more in him if he needed it.

Good fight, lots of intrigue. The 9th round in particular was a cracker.

What height is Trout? He sure looks taller than 5'9 to me.

Showtime commentators are god-awful. Disagreed with their take on just about every single round

I love Alvarez' calmness, he has a real 'pro style'. That's what you get when kids fight frequently early in their career and rack up that many fights, imo. Almost all my favourite fighters come up that way with short amateur careers (not saying Alvarez is one, i just like that aspect of his game).

Canelo should fight with his hands lower more often, it works for him. Take the the ear muff leap amateur safety wheels off, I say.

I think I like the open scoring thing, but i'm really not sure yet. It puts responsibility on the losing fighter to force the issue

 

Disagreed totally on open scoring. Fuck anything that promotes coasting.

Give Mormeck/Bell II a watch for evidence. I'm tempted to not rate fights/wins under open scoring at all.

 

Two sided coin but innit, forces the losing fighter to force the issue. I think it made the fight better in this particular case.....but as I said i really dunno yet. i'd have to see more open score fights

 

It wasn't a huge deal here because Trout didn't have the pop to stop Canelo even if he was still trying to win the 12th.

But if a professional fighter knows the fight is in the bag and he doesn't have to try to win rounds anymore, he can pretty much always survive.

Open scoring is, IMO, one if not the worst idea in boxing history.

 

Good post but I disagree on two things...

1) Open Scoring. The only upside of open scoring, to me, is that it allows one to recognize corruption (possibly innocent incompetence, though I will give no such leeway to a 40-plus year veteran like Stanley Christodulou) in real time and may allow a jobbed fighter to know he is being jobbed and to change his course... Other than that, I see only a downside. In a fight this close, Canelo knew he had it in the bag no matter what by about the 8th round... As a result, he was content to do the bare minimum while Trout, who had fought well, had to put out at a much greater rate in hopes of making something happen. This alters the fight completely in a negative way. I haven't checked everybody's cards, but I doubt any of the folks here who scored it for FitzAlvarez said to themselves after the 8th "well, he can lose all these remaining rounds 10-9 and he is still going to win"... The fight was close, but according to Stanley, it was 8-0 and according to the guy who had 116-111, it was 6-2... both scores are suspect, yet they were official, both fighters knew about them and that changes everything. We have all seen too many blatantly wrong cards over the years for me to have any faith in the idea that open scoring somehow positively affects the performance of judges. If Eugenia Williams can brazenly turn in a 115-113 card in a fight where her "winner" is outlanded by 218 punches and by 23 percentage points, I fail to see how open scoring would somehow shame her into doing a better job... Nor do I see why Holyfield, taking a quiet beating yet doing so well on the scorecards that Lennox actually NEEDS the 12th just to get a draw on the other blind judge's card, would feel compelled to try any harder than he did. If anything, it might make Lewis anxious to abandon a gameplan that, to non-corrupted eyes, is working spectacularly well.

2) Earmuffs as a leap amateur tactic. I don't really see this as the case. There have been plenty of leapers with their hands at their sides and there have been plenty of classic, pro-style technicians with the mitts up high (Floyd Patterson, Marlon Starling, Don Curry) ... I get what you are saying, but I don't think it is a clear cut thing. I really don't see Canelo's higher guard as a leap amateur thing.

 

1) In Lewis-Holy I, LL would have been forced to fight more aggressively, though. It would have made the fight much better. But yeah, I agree there are downsides too.....I don't really have an opinion on it yet, i definitely havent watched enough open score fights to see all the angles.

2) Even in the case of the fighters you mention i'd say they relied at least as much on head movement as just 'ear muffing'. The hands were usually in the peak-a-boo position at about neck level and while they did use them for blocking some of the time, i'd say it was as a supplement/back up to slipping. I think an over reliance on blocking is definitely an outright amateurish trait. I'm sure you'll hit me with a couple of excellent counter examples ::....but as a general rule I think it's inferior and one of the creeping banes of shit modern boxing.

 

Watch Mormeck/Bell II.. right now!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph2YTFDLALs

 

Stop trying to intimidate me with your size, steve :nono:

 

1) But why should he have to? He's jabbing the daylights out of the guy, outlanding him in power shots... He landed 348 punches to 130 for Holyfield... He beat him convincingly... the fight was one-sided... he's got to fight like Frank Fletcher now because two paid-off shitheels at ringside don't know how to score a fight? Forget Lennox, what if you are a featherfist like Nicolino Locche and the other guy hasn't landed a punch on you yet, you've jabbed as you pleased and you find out two of three judges have the other guy up 5-0 after 5 rounds... what do you do now? Start throwing bombs?

2) I think that is a bit rigid... and what point do blocking and parrying intersect... Alexis Arguello's main defensive tactic was parrying, didn't move his head a whole lot and certainly kept his mitts up... by parrying, you are essentially blocking the punch in a fancier way that might better allow a counter... I don't enjoy watching Winky Wright take punches on his elbows, forearms and gloves and then counter with a jab and another jab masquerading as a cross, but I don't know that I'd lump it in with the clueless, idiotic button mashing of Amir Khan or Joe Calzaghe's slap avalanche games of tag or Jermain Taylor's panicky jab, hug, wild awkward right hand to space above his opponent's head, either... there's a real craft there... it is boring as fuck, there is no drama, there is not even the hint of a knockout or anything resmbling it but it is not a style easily exposed by a proper professional technician the way the other three were (or in Calzaghe's case, would have been had he fought anyone good)

 

I wath hitting huthut with puncheth to the body and he was making noitheth... unnnhhhh... waaaahhhunnnnhhh... wimpering noitheth... it wath thomewhat like a woman thcreaming

 

1) Of course Lewis & Locche shouldn't need to change tactics but surely their position's better with open scoring for knowing they have to? I dunno, you're probably right (you almost always are)....I'll watch a few open scoring fights this week and get a better feel for it, I think that was literally the first ive ever seen.

2) Arguello was the one exception i had in mind, actually. I'm sure there are others. I think it's a pretty sturdy rule of thumb tho. And as you say there's a pretty big difference between picking shots off and just ear muffing

 

:truce:

 

athetic:

 

::
You're no alexthander

Let me refine the 'ear muffing' thing a bit coz thinking about (and watching a little of) Arguello made it clearer. It's not so much about high hands before you engage, it's about what you do as your opponent's punching. Arguello would pick shots off with one hand and fire with the other & two high hands as defense was a fall back last resort same as for guys who held their hands lower. Modern guys tend to cover up or back off (ear muff or leap) more and dont really blend defense and offense as well. Alvarez seems to have, or is getting close to having, the ability to do things right (especially with head movement/lower hands) but falls back on the ear muffing too much.

Deal? :truce:

 

I'll agree when you at least watch the last four rounds of Mormeck/Bell II

 

OK, I'll get on it

 

artie:

 

Cant find the 2nd half of the fight man, it only seems to go up to half way through round 7. sosoboxing dont have it either

 

Yeah, it was. I pointed out that Canelo was bigger, aside from that Cotto is the better puncher. Diego Corrales was an infinitely better puncher than Tyson Fury, I don't have any doubt that Fury hits harder though.

 

Cotto Damn Sure AIN'T Corrales & Canelo Ain't Fury...

Canelo Hitting Harder than Cotto has NATHAN to Do w/Size...It's about the PLACEMENT of his Shots, his ACCURACY, Superior HANDSPEED & More Sheer POWER...THUDDING Power is a Matter of Size, but that's NOT the Type of Power Canelo Possesses...Canelo EXPLODES Into a Guy...

The Knockdown of Trout had NATHAN to Do w/Canelo Being BIGGER than Cotto...



REED:num:

 

Deal :Thumb: