Vitali vs Foreman: Who had the better technique?

:bears:

 

Let me give you another irrational response.

The punch that really fucked up the skin around Vitali's eye and thus lead to the severe injuries was a freak one, since Lewis actually misses the shot and the laces of his glove ripped Vitali. You don't see that happening too often. And in my opinion it is HIGHLY questionable to assume that it would happen every time Vitali meets a great fighter. So even though Lewis did win the fight fair, it still doesn't tell as much to us about who was the better between the two, than an actual KO or a commanding decision would have. Surely you must agree with this?

 

I agree with parts of this. The point would be more valid, though, if Vitali was stopped as a result of a cut. Singular. But unless you are trying to say that the laces caused ALL of the injuries, then my original point is valid.

As it happens, I tend to think that Vitali's size and strength advantages over elite HW's gives him a legitimate shot at a few of them. But that is due to his physical attributes rather than a reflection of his skills and abilities IMHO.

Again, though, the point is that Vitali has had ONE fight at the very highest level. He was busted up and stopped before the start of a seventh round. This is not speculation, it is a FACT, and when considering a man's capabilities and potential it would be foolish IMHO to ignore this FACT and focus instead on other intangibles like 'maybe this' and 'possibly' that.

MTF

 

How many other cuts as bad as Vitali can you name between fighters of comparable world class level? Quite honestly, I can think of Marciano against Charles and after that I'm pretty much stumped. And even that wasn't fight threatening necessarily because it was on the nose. Benitez against Cervantes was grotesque, but he could fight through that.....Leije against Ward compares, if you wanna go down the levels a bit.

But I'd class it as a freak occurrence. Not one that illegitimizes Lewis' victory in any way, but a freak occurrence nonetheless that you can't really hold against a fighter too strongly.

BTW, I've agreed with yourself and Steve Dave on the Lewis-Klit fight before - I actually had it scored even and I think lewis would have won. And I also think Lewis was fat, untrained, old and there to be taken.

But....just sayin'.

 

Pure heavy agREED, mon. Yaaas.

 

Editted to Insert the names of Hagler and Hearns...in order to shown the silliness of this position.....

 

C'mon man. A 'fact' without context is a stupid & dangerous thing.

 

I don't deny that the SEVERITY of the cuts were freakish. They were horrible cleaves into a man's face. But they were caused by punches. Even at the most generous end of the scale might you argue that one of them was caused by 'scuffing' of the skin resultant from laces grazing the face (and, with the best will in the world, I'm not sure how this can be proven or otherwise...) but the others were caused by punches that Vitali got hit with.

He wouldn't have been cut had he been good or quick enough to get out of the way. This is what can be held against him as opposed to the cuts themselves. The cuts were a symptom of a fighter's inability to get his face out of harm's way. This is especially strong evidence IMHO when considering a man whose entire career, save this one fight, has seen him fight rubbish who are incapable of landing a blow on him due to their own failings.

MTF

 

We have to agree to disagree then about the significance of cuts. I can see your point.

This other point though I do not really understand. Yes, big part of Vitali's success is his size and reach, but they are physical attributes as much as speed, power, reflexes etc and should not count against a fighter. A guy of Vitali's size could not show the same skills Mike Tyson did, no matter how good he was

 

Agree with this.

 

I'm trying to boil this down to as few words as possible... I have it down to five words when describing Vitali's one attempt at the elite.

He almost lost an eye.

 

Obviously Vitali has more than sheer size. Primo Carnera and Jess Willard had as much SIZE..didn't make them dominant. Michael Grant and Jorge Luis Gonzales were behemoths as well...and I didn't see them dominate teh top of the division.

So anyone that says that Vitali gets by just on size...isn't thinking.

 

"The thing is though Hut, and I'm addressing this point to you because you are capable of rational analysis, unlike certain others ::, is that cuts are NOT a freak injury in boxing. They happen a lot when people are not good enough to get out of the way of punches.

If the cuts had been caused by a headbutt or similar, then fair enough, but they were not. They were caused because Hearns drew Hagler into a firefight in which Hagler got hit. A lot. If Hagler was as good as many would like us to believe he is, why was he NOT good enough to get out of the way of the punches which caused the injury?"

 

To do so is disinegnuous: both Hagler and Hearns proved on a NUMBER of DIFFERENT occassions that they were up to the task at elite level.

Let me put it this way- if a man has ten title fights against top opponents and succumbs to cuts once in that time, it would be silly to then use that as the basis of a general analysis of that man's ability. That much is obvious.

Through no fault of his own, Vitali does not have the benefit of drawing on a body of work to support his position. Sure, he shown himself excellent at dispatching the various attempted dross he has faced over the last ten years and more. But, unlike most supposedly 'elite' fighters, he only has one fight to show for his efforts. And, with the best will in the world, he literally had holes punched into his face. Not one hole, but SEVERAL holes, in different areas, caused by different punches.

MTF

 

Maxboxing persisted with that angle for years. Until somebody pointed out to them that handspeed is the same sort of physical advantage that strength is, and is no more a gift or a sign of skill and talent than pure brute strength.

It is unlikely that a man 6'8" tall could display the same sort of maneuvers that Tyson did, that is basic physiology.

 

There is a context though man. The context is 'the result of Vitali's forays into elite level'

MTF

 

1. Lewis might just be top 5 material anyways.

2. Lewis was able, as I pointed out, to close/overtake the talent and size gap. Most heavyweights can't do that with Vitali. They start with a significant gap to close in that regard and most likely aren't able to.

 

I don't think the Lewis fight counts against him. I don't think it counts for him, either. I think it neatly puts him at his appropriate level - a very good champion who isn't quite as good as somebody like Lewis but who at least stands up to a comparison. Like say the Louis fights did for Wallcott.

I just think you wanna be negative about it cause you don't like him and I wanna be positive about it coz I got sherbet lemons coming out my ass and rainbows firing out my japseye, yo.

 

His "foray" was the result of a few days notice to fight the biggest fight of his career. And his "foray" was not extended as Lewis, who may have learned a thing or two himself, clearly did not want a rematch. I would like to think Vitali played a part in that, but, hey, maybe Lewis was going to retire anyways, after he had punctuated his career by beating Kirk Johnson.:boring:

 

On this I agree, so allow me to put this a different way.

IMHO Vitali is quite quick for a very big fighter, but I wouldn't consider him especially quick, especially compared to the smaller, naturally quicker HW's littered through history. Also, Vitali does NOT have concussive power as compared to his supposed historical contempories, despite the claims of some. Foreman had REAL power as a heavy, for example. So did Louis and Lennox. Vitali does not. He wears his opponents down because they are shit and let him hit them hundreds of times. Lewis, who is supposed to be 'chinny' according to some, took plenty of flush shots against Vitali and he never moved.

What Vitali has is good fundamentals, a strong jab and what the Lewis fight DOES show is that he has plenty of heart and a good chin. These, coupled with his natural size advantage (which makes his jab a very useful weapon), make him a live dog against some of the best HW's ever. But I wouldn't favour him over any truly elite HW you could name.

MTF

 

Vitali would have TOWERED over Ali. Absolutely towered over him. Do you think Vitali's size advantage and good jab beats Ali then?

MTF

 

Vitali has enough to beat Joe Frazier, even if Vitali was fuck all more than a prototype human-being on a sketchpad somewhere. That's how I look at the guy, like a blueprint. 6'8", 250lbs, big right hand, awkard as hell, solid chin, subtle movement, brave, decent right uppercut....you have to give him at least a 50-50 chance. On specifications alone.

 

Very possibly.

 

I am not trying to be negative mate- as I have said, I think Vitali is a very good fighter who handles shit/average/decent fighters with ease and who would be very competitve (and even a marked favourite on many ocassions) against many historically very good heavies.

I just don't think he is an elite fighter.

MTF

 

As I said, these physical advantages give him a shot. But he doesn't hit hard enough, anywhere NEAR hard enough in fact, to keep Frazier off him IMHO. To stop Frazier in his tracks you have to throw hooks and uppercuts of concussive power. Vitali throws one uppercut or hook for every twenty straight right hands he throws. He'd likely miss with a bundle of them because Frazier had such a low centre of gravity and have to fight inside against a vicious body puncher. When has he ever had to do that?

MTF :dunno:

 

You must be mad mate...

MTF ::

 

Do you see young Cassius Clay the same way? He was exceptionally fast, which is a talent more than a skill. He didn't have serious power. instead he wore his opponents down because they were shit and let him hit them hundreds of times.

What Clay had was good fundamentals, sharp jab, heart and good chin. These, coupled with his natural height and reach advantages made him good

 

Well that depends what elite means. As good as Lewis? No. But then head to head, I'd fancy Lewis as the greatest heavyweight ever. Beyond that I don't think we have much to go on other than our eyes and opinions.

If we see hims against Povetkin & Haye, who I regard as two very decent contenders we'll know far more than we do now. But both are too scared.....

 

No, because Ali is one of the very few fighters who stacks up physically in a half-decent fashion, and then establishes a gulf of his own in the talent department.

Guys like Joe Frazier wouldn't have either the size, or the talent, and after a beating from Ali, they probably wouldn't have the chin or facial connective tissue either.

 

As I've said before, Ali & Klitschko have VERY similar styles in terms of their defence and reliance on range. One uses height, the other uses speed and grace. One looks allot prettier but it's to pretty similar effect