Vitaly Klitschko vs Lennox Lewis, a very underrated fight

The statement is wrong twice; Eubank in the UK was about as popular as a pile of illegal immigrants. He was largely hated here until he started losing, when he started to become reasonably well tolerated.

MTF ::

 

Thats why I said that Kellerman should have reflexively corrected Lampley.

Just who do you think is a reliable voice of boxing in America?

 

Not when color comes into play, Feebs.

I dig Ray Mancini, he was overrated then and he's underrated now. However, there can be no question that Ray Mancini became famous because he was a white kid competing in a sport where all the best fighters were black or hispanic. Sean O'Grady was the exact same thing, he was a pin-up kid. A sort of boxing teen-idol. Who were their great rivals? Mancini had Bramble, but that was waaay after he was already famous. O'Grady had no real rival.

Gerry Cooney's career highlight was a butchering of a totally used-up Ken Norton. His fight against Larry Holmes was the richest in Heavyweight history at the time and was watched by millions upon millions of people here. Why? he was a big, soft-spoken white guy.

 

A proud tradition which I hope is maintained for some time yet.

 

Agreed.

 

Fair enough. I'm not from the States and don't live there, so I simply don't know enough of the dynamic there to offer much more than general suppositions. Here, for example, Nigel Benn was a hell of a lot more popular and well known than Joe Calzaghe and Carl Froch. A lot of that is because of his rivalries with Eubanks and Watson, part of it because the fights were shown on terrestrial TV, part of it his character and personality etc

MTF

 

NOBODY

The most reliable voices of boxing in the world are found among hardcore fans, in my experience. There are guys here (out of what, 15 regulars?) who are a lot hipper than any of the guys I have read who are doing it for a living. I wouldn't cross the street to hear Dan Rafael's opinion on anything other than a good place to get ice cream. I'm sure Thomas Hauser has a lot of insider information about the business of boxing, but in terms of what goes on in the ring, I don't find he or any other writer particularly bright.

I read the same infantile, simplistic bullshit coming out of British writers as I do American ones. Steve Bunce (whom you have championed) is a blowhard. I don't think these guys know fuck-all about the sport technically or historically. Their opinions are of no interest to me.

I think most fight fans might peruse an article to see what fights are coming up or for some sort of business news (which I have little interest in, frankly) but I doubt too many fans sit there and think "yeah, Steve Bunce and Steve Kim know more about the game itself than I do. I better defer to them" ... I know I don't.

 

Actually, I think Bunce does know a lot about boxing; he watches a lot of fights and rarely makes basic factual errors like the ones Lampley and Kellerman make. It's just that Bunce also happens to be a shrill, egotistical pillock.

MTF

 

Benn was also very exciting because of his wild style and his combination of dangerous/vulnerable ... that helps

Arturo Gatti was shit compared to the top fighters, but he was in an endless marathon of dramatic fights. That stuff sells, so he was popular in America.

 

:cheer:

 

Bunce is an odd one. He knows the game and its fighters inside out, but his story is a bit different. His main crime is to not just be a blowhard, but a blowhard for hire. He used to be a lot leaner and a lot meaner, now he's just a fat mouth for Frank Warren or whatever other moron comes his way with a few bob for him.

Bunce would buy and sell Max Kellerman, the only problem being that Bunce isn't for sale himself- he was bought years ago.

 

Pretty much. You watch now...he'll pump up the British team that was at the Olimpdicks....why? Cos he thinks they are brilliant? No. Because he needs to lay the ground for their entry, and Boxnation sale thereof, into the realms of professional TV boxing. What makes Bunce so risible is that he knows scrubby Josh couldn't carry Lennox Lewis' rasta hat for him......but because scrubby josh is British, on the cusp of the pro game and big money....Bunce will say what needs saying.

 

Ali, too, arguably became beloved only after he had lost to Frazier and Norton... the swell of positive sentiment toward him really came after he beat Foreman. That was the first fight where the dynamic seemed to be Ali as "The Good Guy" (funny, outgoing, clowning around, smiling, expressive) and Foreman as "The Bad Guy" (menacing, humorless, stone-faced, glaring) and when Ali won, even a lot of the old-timey reporters who for years had hated him started to come around and begrudgingly "like" him... sometimes, how a cocky guy like Ali or Eubank handles a loss, can reinvent them in the eyes of the fans.

I remember being thrilled at watching MAB school the arrogant, obnoxious Hamed, even willingly risking a point so he could slam his face into a turnbuckle. But, I also remember being impressed by Hamed's surprising humility in defeat. He made no excuses and praised the victor. I thought for sure this would lead to some future reassessment as a more likable character. Of course, he had only one more uninspiring bout and then vanished. So it wasn't to be...

 

Bunce's technical knowledge doesn't impress me in the least. That's really all I would be interested in from a writer. If they don't have much there, I'm not impressed. The only other thing they can be good for are stories about the fighters as people. You can learn the good and bad about a guy, his life story, his interests, his family, his relationships with others in the boxing world, etc. ... that stuff is all well and good. The technical knowledge and the objective assessment of what is going on or has gone on in the ring is something I could never and have never gotten from any boxing writer.

 

You exaggerated, as usual, in Vitali's favor. And you're making much more of of this punch and Vitali's reaction to it. And since you feel the need to go to an amateur fight to make your case doesn't really help you here.

Your argument is not based on any sort of facts. It's just more speculation on your part.

 

:wack:

 

Not true. While it wasn't a true "Superfight", Jones & Toney were both undefeated going into that fight and were considered two of the very best fighters in the world. The losses you referred to took place after that fight in a different weight class.

It was a big fight at that time. I was living in NYC then and a lot of people I knew were talking about that fight, not just hardcore fans.

After losing to Jones, Toney did stumble for a while at light-heavy. But your description of their fight as a "non-event" is not accurate.

 

Yes it is.....James was on shots to urinate. He was out of it. Had nothing.

Note the "period"......I never said that the fight was a non-event because he had lost to Thadzi or Griffen.

Toney couldn't piss without medical assistance in the days leading up to the fight. You want to make that out to be an event?

 

Vitaly vs Lews was a great fight... and anyone who disagrees can go FUCK HIMSELF !!!

 

Nope. You said. "James was losing to Drake Thadzi and Griffin about as often as he was beating Barkley and that Prince Charles lad."

And he didn't lose those fights until AFTER the Jones fight at a higher weight. As usual, you try to exaggerate and/or misrepresent what was actually happening.

 

Well reasoned response, as usual. ::

 

Who said he won or lost them before the Jones fight? Who introduced the timing of those losses/wins?

You did. In your head.

I said the Jones vs Toney fight was a "non-event". If you want to make an "event" out of a crippled Toney and a Jones that was too flighty to knock him out, then go ahead.

 

Lewis-Klitschko was the last great heavyweight fight. Shame about the ending, but it always has great re-watch value

 

Nope. You tried to make it sound like those losses were relevant to the Jones - Toney fight and they were not. You seem to like pulling stuff out of your ass rather than dealing with the actual context. Less BoxRec, more actual fights.

 

Sorry, the leap-assumptions are of your own making. Toneys medical state is enough to cast aspersions on the pertinence of his "fight" with Jones. I wouldn't have needed to introduce any other derogatory factors.

 

So call it a non-fight. As an event it was relevant, and meant a lot for a long time after it ended.

 

Pretty sure Jones/Toney made Roy P4P #1. It was a lot more than a non-event in the US.

 

Irish didn't know who Jones or Toney were when that fight happened.

Toney's medical state was irrelevant to the fight as an event, none of that came to light until after the fight. There were rumors, but nobody knew the real extent of how much Toney had to drain to make 168. It was his fault anyway, he'd blown WAY up and didn't start dieting until 6 weeks out.

 

But Jones made him fight in a 30 foot ring!

 

Foreman-Lyle was MORE Violent...



REED:egypt: