WHAT's Gonna Happen WHEN (Not If, but wHEN) Cotto HITS Manny???...

So since you're not happy that he passed away, would you have preferred, seeing as how the best judge of his own health was himself, that he quit on his stool, and save his own life? :crafty:

 

C'mon Reed. Don't you know that anyone who even suggests that ANY fighter has a chance of beating Manny is biased against him and/or a hater???

 

Is that SUBTLE Bias or Full-Blown ANTI-Pacquiao Sentiment???...


REED:hammert:

 

Well...you did suggest that Cotto would actually land a meaningful punch on Manny, so I think you are definitely ANTI-Pac.

 

So lemme ask this question. When is it ok for a fighter to quit. Some like to use the word retire. I mean is it after the first hard punch that is landed? Is it after the fighter gets staggered. Is it after the first knockdown. The reason I ask is that if we allow give free passes or if we allow this to manifest then we won't have tough ass fights like vasquez/marquez. I mean when roy dropped calzaghe joe appeared hurt but he got and fought like champion. We wouldn't have the gatti/ward fights. I can go on and on but what about when manny pac dropped marquez 3 times in the first and he came back to fight like a warrior. If we would have said marquez just quit we wouldn't had that type of fight. I can go on and on and on when guys would rather go out on their shields then quit knowing they could pay the ultimate price which is death. Boxing is a dangerous sport and if a guy is taking too much damage then his people/doctor/ref need to stop the fight. The fighter should never quit. Quitting should never be in a fighters mental makeup. Once you quit once it gets easier and eaiser to do. I'll Holla 5000

 

Easy for you to say when you're not the one who is hurt, exhausted and ready to drop but is STILL getting punched in the head.

Boxing is a sport and the participants should not feel they need to become permanently injured or worse just to entertain us. What about the families of these "warriors"? Do you think they are happy that their husband or father went out on his shield? Do you want to be the one to tell a fighter's family it's ok that he died because at least he didn't quit. I'm guessing they would prefer him taking a knee and living to fight another day rather than getting pummelled to the point of no return.

Don't get me wrong...I hate when fighters pull an obvious quit like Bruce Seldon and make no effort to actually win. But I see nothing wrong with a fighter who has given his best effort and has nothing left to give stopping the fight before he is seriously injured.

 

Couldn't have put it better myself. :bears: BigDawg is alright by me, but he is completely and utterly wrong here.

Boxing isn't Christians v The Lions. It's a sport. If a fighter is taking punch after punch, is outclassed completely and cannot protect himself, he should call it quits and live to fight another day.

Boxers are paid to win fights, not to fight each other until one or the other dies.

MTF

 

REED Sorta Agrees w/Bigdawg on this Matter...

The TRAINER Should KNOW his Fighter & Make that Judgement Call, NOT The Fighter...OR, the Fighter & Trainer Should Have Some Sort of CODE or Something...NOBODY Wants to See a Leavander Johnson Situation (REED PERSONALLY Witnessed 1 in Dallas, During the Al Seeger-Benjamin Flores Fight), but that's WHY we have Ref's, Doctors & Trainers to BEGIN w/...

When Joe Frazier Wanted to Come Out for Round 15 in the "Thrilla in Manilla", Eddie Futch PULLED the PLUG...When Ali was Tooooo PROUD to Quit After Round 10 of the Holmes DEBACLE, Angelo Dundee ASTUTELY Recognized the DEFEATIST Body Language of his Fighter AND the Hopelessness of his Situation...& Despite the CRIES Of "No, No" from Ali's Yes Men, Angelo STOPPED the Fight Anyways, Giving Ali the 1st & Only "KO" Loss of his Career...

Pulling a No Mas, ala, Duran, Golota or Freitas Should NEVER B Accepted:nono:...Clearly, Kostya Tszyu Wanted NO PARTS of a 12th Round w/Ricky Hatton, yet his Trainer Helped him to Save a BIT of Face by Stopping it...He @ Least Recognized that Things WEREN'T Going Kostya's Way, REPEATEDLY Said to Him,"I'm Gonna Stop It, I'm Gonna Stop It" & PULLED the PLUG when Kostya DIDN'T Object...

Yes, it's a Sport, but ULTIMATELY, Boxing is a GLADIATOR Sport...It's Very UN-Gladiator Like to QUIT...



REED:hammert:

 

Its a fine line, I'm thinking of mc clellan taking a knee for the second time in the 10th rd (?), and the commentator talking of him quitting. Who are we to judge when the right time is, when the quitjob is merited?

i don't feel too bad that one of my favorite fighters erik morales quit against pac in the last fight, he gave it all and had no resistance left. Theres a dignity there, its understanable, although its case by case situation, I was less understanding when victor ortiz turned his back against maidana or freitas quit against diaz

 

Well, you just need a bit of common sense and logic.

I mean really, it's usually obvious when a fighter quits because he's just lost his nerve and doesn't fancy it (Freitas) and when a fighter quits because he is fucked and has nothing left and knows he could get seriously hurt.

Also, when a fighter has been badly injured or killed, you can usually tell the amount of punishment they've taken.

Basically if a fighter is outclassed, badly hurt, taking a huge amount of punishment, I would rather they quit than get killed or brain damaged.

 

And salaco, indeed I agree. Those 2 quitjobs were particularly bad.

I think the reason we as boxing fans often judge quitting so harshly, is because most of them aren't warranted, and are just a case of a fighter bitching out, just like Ortiz and Freitas.

For example, I didn't blame Izzy for quitting against Marquez. The guy is a warrior, I know that much, and if he said he had trouble breathing and couldn't fight, I believe him. They had a rematch and Izzy won.

 

I don't disagree with the notion that certain fighters, depending on the situation, should be criticized for quitting when they haven't given their best effort. But what about fighters like Arguello (in the Pryor Rematch) or Tyson (vs. Lewis)? Should they be criticized and labeled quitters or are they just fighters who gave an honest effort and realized they could not win and didn't see any reason to subject themselves to further pointless punishment?

To me, a fighter shouldn't have to be willing to die in the ring to prove he is not a coward or a quitter.

 

its ironic that we need idiots in full swing to keep this ship rolling. Bigdawg thats a Karlesque take on quitting.

I love the internet warriors who'd die before they'd quit. Its a fucking sport, grow up.

 

You usually bring more common sense to your posts. The statement I bolded is really stupid. The statement right after the one I bolded was much better said. A fighter should never come into a fight with the option of quitting in his mind. That is the key. When you say it should not be in his mental makeup, you are completely right.

However, when a fighter knows himself after having a few hundred amateur fights and maybe a few dozen pro fights, they know when that time finally comes that they are so badly hurt that:
(1) They are in danger of permanent serious injury or death
-AND-
(2) THEY CANNOT WIN THE FIGHT

When these 2 conditions are met, the fighter has an obligation to quit. Even if just (1) above is true, or just (2) above is true, I am not necessarily in favor of the fighter quitting. We'd be robbed of a ton of great fights if fighters quit because (1) is true.

But if both (1) and (2) are true, then continuing is pointless because you cannot WIN. When a fighter steps in the ring, he is willing to risk his health because he can WIN. These guys are not risking life and limb so they can look tough losing. They are motivated by victory. When there is no longer a chance of victory AND the fighter is risking serious permanent injury or death they SHOULD quit.

But they should not ponder it in advance. They should not have the quit option in the back of their minds all the time when they fight. It's the kind of thing that you never anticipate, but when you finally get there, you know it.

To me this is sort of like the old quarterback who has had 10 concussions and the doctors say one more and he will possibly die. But his team is in the Super Bowl. So hell yeah he plays, death be damned, he's going to go out there and fucking win! But when that veteran QB's team is losing 42-3 and there is 3:22 left in the 4th quarter... come on. Come on. He absolutely should ride the bench. He's done, because what he was risking his health for is GONE.

All this being said, this is why a fighters corner needs to see their guy like family, and be willing to stop fights when their guy is UNABLE TO SEE that they should quit. In a perfect world, this is always the way it would happen. But so many times a fighters corner is remiss in their duty, and does not make the right call, leaving the fighter to do it. And that SUCKS, but that is why there are justifiable cases, IMHO.

 

Bigdawg, these posts that have subsequently taken place overnight since my last, I take no credit for this thorough and brutal ownage, but just know, that it's ok to retire from making any more posts in this thread, when there's no hope of winning.

 

Mister REED cited the exact example I was thinking of: Frazier-Ali in Manilla.

Here is a man was blind in one eye, had his only working eye completely closed and was fighting on instinct and hatred alone. Another three minutes similar to the 14th round would quite conceivably had killed him. There is no shame at all in Eddie Futch's decision to pull the plug; it was an act of compassion on the part of a man who cared deeply for his fighter and his family and wanted to see his man live a little longer.

For everyone one or two 'cowardly' quit jobs (i.e. those from fighters who have just seemingly given up) there are a hundred where a fighter has given his all, has come up short and is approaching the point where he is coming dangerously close to being seriously hurt. One-punch KO's might look more spectacular, but consistent, heavy punishment generally causes more long term damage and NO fighter should have to take that sort of beating to prove 'he isn't a quitter'. If he can't win and is taking a shellacking, he should stop. The object of the fight is to win, not to fight to the death.

Boxing is a dangerous sport which takes great courage on the part of the competitors to parkate in. The aim is to knock the other man unconscious, not beat him to death. This internet trend of labelling people 'quitters', particularly prevlant among those who have never in their lives so much as sparred in a boxing ring, let alone fought in one, is shameful and excrutiating.

The people who care for the sport should do EVERYTHING in their power to prevent tragedy when and wherever possible. This includes accepting that, sometimes, a man can do no more and has had enough. That much is owed to the men and women who lace 'em up and to the families of those kind enough to share these warriors with us.

MTF

 

Absolutely. Both the US and the UK commentators described McClellan as having a 'heart problem' and having been 'outgutted' by Benn when he seemingly quit in the 10th round of that fateful fight. In fact, Ferdie was STILL banging on about McClellan quitting all the way until the camera cut back to his corner and we saw that he was flat on his back, unconscious and dying.

BigDawg woul have been proud of Gerald, though. Gerald took his medicine like a man...

MTF :doh:

 

Yea right. You ain't owned shit. You just have bitchassness in your veins that's all. Like I said I've heard too many fighters say that they would rather go out on their sheild and possibly die then quit. So therefore I guess I'm in the same boat as them. But you on the other hand will quit when the going gets too rough. I'll Holla 5000

 

This is a very bad example. For the simple fact is that if anyone suffers a concussion the doctors make the call on whether or not that player is to fit to play and more times then not they are going to air on the side of caution. The athlete has to be cleared to play and if the doctor says that the athlete can't play then no matter what that athlete will not be able to play. I believe that's why Young and Aikmen retired due to multiple concussions. So no the old QB will not be able to come back into the game even if it is the super bowl. Sorry but that was a weak ass example. Now I'm glad you brought up another sport. Because when a player is injured the doctors look him over. Just like in boxing the corner is there checking his fighter out, the referee is there checking the fighter out, the comissioner is there, and so is the ring side doctor. They are all there to protect the fighters. Now like I said shit happens and guys die. That's the nature of the beast. I still don't think that a fighter should ever quit. Like Reed said there should be a plan between the boxer and his trainer so that if he sees that his guy is taking too much damage then he can throw in the towel and his boxer won't appear to look like a quitter. There's nothing wrong with your corner stopping the fight. You live to fight another day. But never in my eyes should a fighter just give up on himself and quit. I don't believe in that. Like I said we've all witnessed too many fights where fighters were being dominated and could have quit but came back and won. I'll Holla 5000

 

In one of Manny's interviews in his arrival at Vegas, he came the closest to saying he'll win the fight saturday night. He usually stick to the script of saying he'll try his best. But when asked whether size will be Cotto's greatest strength, he smiled and said:

"Cotto THINKS he'll be stronger and bigger than me."

Right there, I think Manny thinks he could match Cotto strength wise on the inside.

And how can you not like a fighter who says: " I love my opponent and I love everybody." "This fight is for fans who love boxing. I want to make them happy."

 

That's right, you weren't owned by me, but the cavalry that came unexpectedly,.. DAYYYYYYUUUUUMN,...it's alright though Bigdawg, I've been there, I've been owned before, it's actually good for the spirit, my assessment of Margarito's character for example, 'Lovely, moral soul' ...and I'm taking a daily beating for that,..and what makes it worse as you say, is that I've got 'bitchassness' in my veins, well your correct, but you didn't need to 'assume' that you know, I'm white Bigdawg.

 

I just pulled my big black cock out and slapped your ass across the face with it. Let's see who should we believe some internet geeks whom majority never competed in any type of sport. Or should we take the word from a guy that not only has fought at the highest level but is currently sparring with guys that are at the top of their game. Hmm I think I'm gonna go with 30G. Though you may have thought that I was getting owned by you and who ever else decided to chime but needless to say bigdawg not only knocked your ass out but he knocked out everyone that spoke against me. I will except your retirement cause you just got knocked the fuck out!

 

I honestly think that Pac should be able to hurt Cotto even more than Cotto can hurt him

The speed of Pac Man is a big factor here, that left hand comes flying at you and it is tough to get away from it

If he can catch a smart, defensively sound featherweight with it, he can catch a welterweight for sure and we've seen that his power is one thing that is definitley still with him at these higher weights

Cotto has to survive early if he is going to win, and I dont see it happening

as long as Manny is serious and trained, I think he is going to stop Miguel

 

well said

 

Bigdawg,.. you're correct, you pulled out your mighty gigantic black cock and beatdown this street fodder, chicken-shit, whitebred, honky, cracker, chump! in this post,.........it's just I wonder if you've got a family and a life to live outside of the boxing ring, you're suffering from severe head trauma, seeing mottled colours, you are down 9 rounds to 0, your probably going to suffer to extremes in your geriatric years anyway,... shouldn't the pro-fighter, be allowed to salvage some of his life outside of the ring while he still can?...as we find out with cases of death that occurs or permanent damage, the ref, doctor, cornerman, are not as good a judges about your own physical condition as you are, and I mean, afterall,.. I constantly see NFL players being CHEERED by 50,000 fans, for bravery, as they limp off the field with a sore knee,.. isnt that disgusting and outrageous?.. if you can stand up, you gotta keep going, correct?

 

All I know is that our meaning fightbeats very own professional fighter claims that he would rather go out on his shield then quit. So ask him. I asked him the question and he agreed with me. If not then just read my sig. I'll Holla 5000

 

It's a fighter's job to give an honest effort. This isn't 300.

 

So Bigdawg, if Otis is ever in the horrible position of having to save his own life, and 'retired' for the benefit of his family, and luckily for us we still have the pleasure to speak to him in our forum community, would you stand up for your principles, break the mood a little, and declare that he's a bitchass coward!!!!, the way you would for other profighters in similar positions? :crafty:

 

Just like I said!:hammert::hammert::hammert:
Cotto aint no puncher.

 

Hes not featherfisted either and Pac just laughed at the head and body shots.