Where does Wlad rank in HW history?

And, ever closer we inch to the truth.

Baseball. I said baseball.

But Herol Graham couldn't buy a world title..........Shea Neary....Andy Holligan....Frank Bruno....Sibson....Gary Jacobs.....name one one dominant British champ from the pre-basketball scenery of 80's and early 90's boxing?

With Eubank, Benn, Naz....starting there, British boxing has never had it so good since the early 90's began. Naz....Calzaghe, Hatton, Froch, Haye, Khan......basketball, y'all???? :dunno:

 

Yes, it was me, I admit it. I confess. I knocked the fucking towers down. It was me. I used a great big swinging basketball and I knocked them right over. ON MY FUCKING OWN.

 

You're doing it again.

 

:say:

 

I can't be arsed with this. Instead of baiting us with stupid posts designed to 'inch us to the truth' why dont you just state your general point (f you have one) instead of this online wax on wax off pish.

 

Herol Graham couldn't buy a title in the late 80s but he'd be a p4p sensation in 2011, believe that.

 

I always thought Ray Leonard woulda been great shortstop.

 

Is this before or after he lost to double-Sven Ottke-victim, Charles Brewer???

 

Neither of us are exactly correct. The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle. Have other sports franchises eaten into the stock of boxing? Of course they have. Its an argument generic to Irish sports where the various athletics bodies complain yearly that Ireland is punching below her weight at International meets because the talent has been siphoned off by the Hurling and Football teams. Its an argument that carries merit.

Is it exhaustive. No. Too many stand-out athletes from other sports have tried their hand at boxing and failed to a greater or lesser degree. Mike Grant. Mundine. Charlie Powell.

On the other hand, the "domination" of the US in boxing, particularly heavyweight boxing, had been conducted against a backdrop of Eastern European non-participation. Simply put, Eastern Europe produces bigger better athletes than the rest of Europe. Part of it is genetic and part of it is systemic.

Just as the exploits of Babe Ruth must be put in context by the absence of serious "Negro" talent {Negro League- their words not mine :nono:} likewise some examination of the success of American heavyweights, and other weights tool, should be made. Why? Because the simple fact remains that Riddick Bowe took a horrendous beating at MSG from a Polish guy a mere 6 years after the wall came down. Thats why.

Like I said, it really is a bit of both.

 

Ray Leonard burst onto the scene after the 76 Olimps. It wasn't till 1992 until Oscar came close to replicating that sort of pizazz. Was that because of the influence of basketball or baseball in the intervening 16 years? Nope. Real standout stars are rare. In between those stars exist competent, talented champions. I contend that European fighters have found themselves constituting their fair share of that competent, talented body of fighters. Honeyghan was a classic example. Honeyghan couldn't have done much with a Ray Leonard but he was up there with the rest of them. Nobody fished for talk of basketball when Honeyghan wasted Donald Curry. He was just a good fighter who prepared better than Curry and beat him. Had Oscar been the man then, or Tito, it might have been a different story. Honeyghan fell between those two eras. Was 147 a wasteland from 1982-1992? No.

It will take a real American star to shift these Euro fighters. Something major. The absence of that star has as much to do with the general rarity of such stars as it has to do with basketball etc. We don't fail to find diamonds on the beach because we spent all our time looking for emeralds. We fail to find diamonds on the beach because there aren't that many there in the first place. The Klitschkos and their like have fallen into an era which is between major stars but which retains more than its fair share of talented competent fighters. The Klitschkos happen to be better than those other talented, competent fighters. Thats all. There is no need for shoddy theories which place a disproportionate emphasis on basketball etc.

After all, why can Europe produce a Dirk Nowitzki and a Wlad Klitschko? :dunno:

 

Irish please don't make me type this out once a month until the end of time.:: Just read this and understand, and if you do already let me know - aptitude in one sport does not inhere aptitude in another, at least not at the very, very highest levels. Would Michael Jordan have made a good boxer, almost certainly not, would Muhammed Ali have made the NBA, almost certainly not. That much I think we agree on.

But bringing up stand out athletes not being good at boxing means nothing in terms of this debate, because it isn't a matter of talent being directly siphoned off in terms of individual stars with names. It's a matter of numbers taking up the sport at an early age, that simple. It's about what Muhammed Ali circa generation Y aspires to and spends his youth doing. Today he probably doesn't even try boxing let alone grow up dreaming of being heavyweight champ,because the sports a dead duck, he plays gridiron or basketball, probably amounts to nothing beyond the high school level and ends up washing dishes or bouncing at a club.

The same guys aren't literally in the NFL instead of heavyweight stars, of course, but that isn't the literal point of the argument and if that's implied it's just a short hand metaphor.

As for where the Eatern Bloc fits into (the) Americas decline.....I dunno I've typed enough, but I honestly don't think it plays any note worthy role.

 

Are you seriously, SERIOUSLY asking why Eastern bloc athletes who might be capable of participating in either sport are less likely to go into basketball at a young age than American athletes?

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

 

he's not going to listen, he never does

you, me, a few other guys have said the same thing to him 1000 times

he still turns it into "oh, Lebron James -- heavyweight champ":scratcher:

 

There are far greater incentives for pale 'gay' European scum to persue a career in soccer,.. since when has boxing miraculously become the primary sport of focus in Europe?..

 

Who's saying it is?

 

I dont think European boxing has improved whatsoever, beyond Poland and the Soviet states deepening the pool.

 

Well I would think in kind Steven that the European enemies are entitled to the same excuse, if and when the time comes.

 

10 years before. Why do you say these things? ::::::

Yo' twistin' my mellon man!!

 

This is just it. It is only a matter of time before a USA soccer team wipes the floor with a European or South American powerhouse like Spain or Brazil or Argentina. When it happens, I'll Spam the ESPN boards with piffle about how all our boys are boxing or some shit, and will predictably be met with claims that our boys only win at boxing because their boys are all playing soccer. :doh:

 

You are missing the point. Ottke beat Brewer shortly after Graham got stopped by Brewer. I fail to see how Graham could be a pfp star a few short years after Ottke failed to be one.

 

All our athletes are playing AFL - (which like Gridiron in america,.. is more or less an exclusive sport confined to one country alone). Although I hear there is an Irish sport similar to it that I don't know the name of,.. with goal-posts, a round ball and a goalie,... but if you inferior Irish bastards beat us at that,... all our athletes are playing Rugby LEAGUE,.. not Union,.. because we are not the best at that,.. LEAGUE I said,.. LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAG!!! :Steve-Dave/MMA:

:boohoo: Cannot help but think this is bitter and desperate shit,.. what is worse is that Europeans have not DOMINATED!!! boxing,.. they've merely had mixed success,.. but it still clearly causes widespread panick.

 

What were the odds that this topic would eventually be drowned in Irish's endless posts that mostly disregard whatever else was said in order to push his own agenda? ::

 

Come again

 

It's usually head foggingly adroit agenda spinning but Irish's either taken up drinking fairy liquid these last couple of days or dropped a bike garage tool box on his nut.:scratcher: