Who is the definitive HW champion today?

If he had...he would have KOd Frank Bruno IMO.

 

There isn't a definitive heavyweight champion. Wlad has beaten better competition overall imo, and displays more pure skill and finesse, but Vitali is clearly the tougher, stronger, and bigger fighter, and more difficult to beat, imo (altho cuts may factor into that). However it is all conjecture, we don't know who would win between them and we will never know.

The fact that the two best heavyweights in the world will never fight is bad for boxing, unlike the Floyd-Pac fiasco, you can't blame the two boxers in this case, but it is a detriment to the sport regardless. Shitty situation if you ask me. It's a damn shame these two weren't just born in the same town and trained by the same people or something like that, rather than being brothers.

 

You know how often Jake and I debate a topic? I can't remember the last time, if there was one. That doesn't mean he agrees or disagrees with my positions on here, but perhaps it ought to tell you something that your knight in shining armour doesn't come running to save your bitch ass when you're looking like a fool against certified diphshits.

Nice smiley, fem.

 

Gee, you have your timeline wrong and didn't even know Vitali was back in the picture.

[This is mY imitation of some whiny bitch earlier in the thread. I wonder who, steve_dave?]

 

Lewis had the IBF title. Byrd earned a title shot at the IBF title (right?).

Earlier in the thread, you said this:

"He didn't duck Byrd at all. King literally paid for the title. He paid Lewis cash and bought him a car (I want to say Range Rover) in exchange for Lewis making the title available for Byrd-Holyfield to be for a title. That's the story. Lewis was even at the Byrd-Holyfield press conference as a guest of honor.

Seriously, what ATG heavyweight in his right mind would duck Chris Byrd?!"

How much cash? If it is $5,000,000 like Lewis got to let Tyson fight Holyfield, I will retract and say Lewis didn't duck Byrd, but just sold the rights to his IBF claim. If it is $100,000 plus a Range Rover, then I'm sticking with 'Lewis ducked Byrd.' The titles matter and you don't give them up without a very good reason. A few hundred thousand isn't a very good reason. A few hundred thousand + not having to fight a guy like Byrd is a very good reason.

Earlier you also said that Wlad is the 'definitive champ' right now and there is no room for debate. Others have disagreed, including me. I don't even see how you can get any traction for your position without giving great weight to Wlad's fights with Byrd? And that circles us right back to the great Lennox not ducking Byrd because he had no reason to. That seems quite contradictory, unless you have different reasons to support Wlad over Vitali?

Martinez didn't duck Zbik; Hamed did duck JMM. No argument on those.

 

I was off by three months. In fact, you could argue Vitali didn't deserve a #2 rating based off one win in four years or so.

You were off by a good six years.

 

It wasn't $100k, it was $1 million. Almost positive I already said that. I don't think Lewis would've gotten out of bed for $100k.

The point on all of that is, Byrd and King never wanted to fight Lewis, they just wanted the title. King knew he could never get options on Lewis, and that it was easier to purchase belts and/or have them made vacant than to line up his guys and have them lose.

And this is you putting the belts before the fighters once again. Wlad (#1 at the time) beat Chagaev (was the highest rated non-Klitschko on the planet at the time) to establish title lineage. Hence, my claim that Wlad is THE champ. I also stated that a separate debate remains as to who is the BEST heavyweight (and I always pick Vitali in that discussion).

Once again, I've always been clear on that subject. Not sure why you continue to ignore lineage in these debates.

To recap - the belts matter only to those who need them. Don King, for all of his career greatness as a promoter, feels the need to have a belt at stake in every fight beyond the club level.

For someone like Lewis at that stage in his career - and even Wlad today - belts don't mean a damn thing. To be honest, true lineage doesn't even mean what it once did, especially in the presence of a lineal champ (Wlad) arguably not being as great as the #1 contender (Vitali).

 

The reason why we can argue that Wlad is the lineal champ is because it's clear a fight between he and his brother will never happen.

If they ever fought, I'd pick Vitali at least 99 times out of 100. But they never will, so you take the scenario at hand.

Wlad fought Chagaev when he was the highest-rated non-Klitschko in the world.
Wlad fought Chambers when he was Top 5, with arguably Povetkin and Haye having more of a say.
Wlad fought Haye when he was Top 3-5, with maybe Povetkin having as much say (though credibility waning considering he's twice turned down title shots).
Even as argued earlier by mikE, Wlad fought Byrd when he was at/near the top of the division.

The only Top 3ish fighter he hasn't faced (besides Vitali) is Povetkin who, as I just mentioned, is in no hurry whatsoever to fight Wlad. Or more specifically, Atlas is in no hurry, despite the enormous amount of shit he talks about the Klitschkos.

Vitali's wins over Peter and Adamek are, to my knowledge, his only fights against Top 3-5ish comp since returning in 2008. Gomez, Arreola and Johnson were all lower Top 10 fighters. Solis was also hovering around the bottom of the division as well.

 

Why isn't it clear that there isn't a clear lineal champ right now?

I'm referring to http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_Heavyweight--2000s so if I'm off, it's because I don't have access to exact rankings, but assuming these rankings are correct...

Post-Lewis, Vitali #1 beat Sanders #3, a guy who had just whipped Wlad. And you know why this wasn't #1 beating #2? Because the harmless, non-threatening, can't-be-ducked Chris Byrd was #2. At this time, The Ring establishes Vitali as the Champ since Lennox retired.

Vitali never loses this title in the ring, but retires.

Rather than come back and whip Mario Cawley or Otis Tisdale and get rated back at the top of the division (or #2 or #3), Vitali comes back and whips the highest rated non-Klitschko in Sam Peter.

Why is this different than Wlad's Chagaev win? Because Vitali hadn't regained his rating?

Comparing defenses since 2007...I don't care if it favors Wlad...my point (and many others) isn't that a case can't be made for either, but that a definitive case can't be made for either.

Personally, I think JC Gomez and Odlanier Solis might be (probably are) the two best fighters during their joint reigns, but it's easy enough to dismiss both of them and go with Wlad victims or different Vitali victims.

I also rate Chagaev and Chambers better than Adamek and Haye, but none of this really matters. It's more just to support the idea that it isn't conclusive who has the definitive claim.

And if we add a poll to this thread with 3 options (Definitively Wlad, Definitively Vitali, No Definitive champ), I'll be very surprised if Definitively Wlad sweeps the voting.

 

Uuuuuh, REED's Point was that this ISN'T the 1st Time Jake's CALMLY Dealt w/Messageboard IDIOCY from the LIKES of You...Not You LITERALLY, DIPSHIT, but the "LIKES" of you, mikE...Do U Honestly Think you're the 1st Guy to TROLL for Attention by Throwing ASSinine Boxing Opinions Against the Wall, w/Absolutely NoFUCKINGregard for Accuracy or Logic, PRAYING Something will Stick??...

You're Not...

Jake has a KNACK for Systematically Weeding thru BULLSHIT Posts like Yours, in a Professional Manner, Whereas REED Tends to ATTACK...& REED's Always ADMIRED that Quality in Jake...

In This Very Thread, REED & Several Others DEFECATED on your Point about Lennox "Ducking" Chris Byrd...Jake Did it NICER...Either Way, U're Getting SCHOOLED...

Basically, you're the "Charlie Zelenoff" of Boxing Debates...



REED:dancingBaby:

 

Let's find out: poll duly added...

MTF

 

Jake didn't do it nicer, brain surgeon, he just made his points without being a you.

Here's where it ended up:

1. No one is claiming Byrd was afraid of Lennox. I don't think anyone can claim that.

2. Don King controlled Byrd and preferred to get Byrd (ahem King) a title by buying it off of Lennox rather than having Byrd fight Lennox for it.

3. Lennox agreed to give up his IBF title for a Range Rover and $1,000,000. Instead of fighting Byrd, he agreed to fight Kirk Johnson, I think.

4. Byrd won the vacant title easily. Vitali stepped in for Johnson and Lennox retired.

5. The OP and the definitive status of the heavyweight division. MTF's poll should answer this one.

Is getting $1.1M and giving up a title rather than fighting a guy ducking? Keep in mind that the guy he was going to fight instead (Johnson) was an easier out than Byrd by a considerable margin. Consider the guy he did fight (Vitali) was a harder out, despite the earlier quit vs Byrd.

Since Lennox retired, it makes it less clear, imo. Maybe he knew he had limited fights left in him and was just cashing out. But Johnson over Byrd? Is $1.1M enough to give him a pass? Imo, maybe. I already conceded that $5M was an instant pass, but a couple hundred thousand dollars should be considered ducking. $1.1M is arguable, I suppose.

There is the semantic argument about 'ducking'. No one is saying Lennox was actually afraid to fight Byrd, but you can still duck a guy you aren't afraid of, imo. Some seem to believe you can't duck unless you are afraid. Byrd, being a tricky sob, falls into the easier to avoid than to fight category and against common opponents with Lewis, he compares just fine.

 

I had a long, detailed response for all of this, but here's an abridged version:

- Vitali's win over Sanders came while Byrd (who held a win over Vitali) was wedged in between. Byrd TKO10* Vitali had more to do w/ dismissal of lineage more so than 1 v. 3 over 1 vs. 2 debate
- Vitali's win over Peter came three years after Wlad beat him, and with Wlad, Chagaev and I believe Povetkin all ranked ahead of him at the time.
- Compare that to Wlad's wins over Byrd (#1 at the time), Chagaev (#3 at time and Wlad #1, only Vitali ahead of Chagaev), Chambers (#3 at time, Vitali and Povetkin rated ahead, Povetkin already pulling out of fight), Haye (#2 at time, only Vitali ranked ahead)

Every win Vitali has ever scored always came at a time with another non-Klitschko having a say in title lineage. As evidenced above, Wlad has four wins over the highest-rated available opponents - that excludes Vitali, and Povetkin who has twice pulled out of title fights after sitting on his mandatory ranking for years and has no desire whatsoever to fight Wlad.

The only argument against lineage being established is the insistence that as long as Wlad and Vitali are #1 and #2, it should remain vacant. I'm fine with that argument, but quite frankly, it's the only argument to be made beyond mythical matchups.

We can argue the credentials of every lineal HVY champ in existence and probably remove half of the claimants from the mix. But at some point you have to turn to a consensus and work from there.

 

BTW, I'm thoroughly enjoying this debate (especially since we moved past the part where I've had to repeat myself)

 

:atu: at you thinking you've moved past that. Along with Mitchell Kane there has never been a poster that will talk in circles as much as Mike.

 

If I talk in circles, it's mainly due to the guys I'm arguing with not having the ability to understand. Good luck finding an example otherwise.

If I had to pick a lineal champ, I would go with Vitali because of the Vitali/Byrd/Wlad/Sanders/Vitali chain that I discussed earlier and sort of view that as the best (at least longest) claim other than Lennox's.

It still wouldn't be a definitive claim because of all the strong arguments for Wlad and the fact that they are the consensus two best guys and have not and will not fight each other.

So far most are saying it is not a definitive claim. If Jake and others who believe Wlad is the correct answer are correct, they've got more educating to do. Sometimes that requires talking in circles because some people (i.e. mE) are not fully understanding his argument. I think I understand it and just disagree with it, but if he doesn't give up, I'll keep reading.

 

Sorry, but a four year retirement breaks lineage.

 

Emeritus :nono:

 

poll is incomplete without the "who gives a fuck?" option

 

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Feel free to start a "Which of Mayweather's Bentleys is your favorite?" poll.

 

We do understand. The issue is on your end, sorry to say. You're ignoring every point I make and keep repeating your own flawed logic, which I'm about to get in to.

And this is where The Genius is correct. We are repeating ourselves. Vitali RETIRED. He severed all ties to boxing and sat out for four years. Even if lineage was established, it ended the day he said he was no longer fighting. If he came back even a year later, I can see the need for reinstatement. But it was four years. Plus the whole deal with Byrd (who previously BEAT VITALI) being wedged in between Vitali and Sanders - which brings us to the repeating myself part that Genius was talking about.

I agree and disagree. If we're talking about 2004, the issue is that Vitali never fought Byrd. If we're talking about the entire time post-Lewis, then yes I've conceded that the lone argument against Wlad being true lineal champ is that #1 v. #2 (Wlad v. Vitali) never took place.

And for this board, that's fine. But it's also comprised of 11 votes so far. Poll 100 sportswriters for their opinion and see how the results play out.

I'm fine with you disagreeing, just wish you'd acknowledge the points I make (even in disagreement).

 

I'm not really a fan of Bentleys.

 

Me neither really but if you've got one using up space in your garage i'll take it off your hands.

 

I do, actually. Paypal me and it's yours

 

Can I have one too loadedgloves?

 

Paypal? You want money from me?

Fuck you're cheap!

 

Not in JJ Jeffries day it didn't. :nono:

 

JJ also had the highest order of courage.

 

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