Who was the more techically skilled fighter?

A guy dancing with his hands down by his side, leaning against the ropes outside of the ring, not putting his body weight in his shots but more like slapping, no body shots whatsoever vs a naturally smaller guy with always a reach disadvantage who had to do something technically better than most in order to even compete.


Hmm......tough one!

I always marvel at some people, WTF do they think Frazier should've done? Stay on the outside and jab to utilize his 6-10 inch reach DISadvantage? This topic is about who is the more technically skilled fighter and that is ABSOLUTELY Frazier, if this were a who is the more physically skilled fighter then of course it would be Ali. Blinders and blatant LUST causes weird reactions from some.

 

Exactly.

Furthermore...if Ali was technically better than Frazier and...LOST...does that not make Frazier a technical legend?

I think we have crossed over into a branch of metaphysics none of us can hope to understand...better leave it alone.....before we do untold damage.:nono:

 

:atu:

I'm outta this topic....

 

Get back into the Heavyweight thread....I can only hold them off for so long....

 

NEWSFLASH!!!...

Being Willing to TAKE 2 Shots just to LAND 1 is an Indicator of TECHNICAL PROFFICIENCY!!!!...WHO KNEW??!!!



REED:boohoo:

 

What would you have him do, stay on the outside and just try to avoid shots from a guy 4 inches taller with an 8 inch reach advantage? Not many fights are won that way if I recall correctly. It's not like he was defenseless, he pretty much created the cross arm bob n weave so he could get inside which is pretty TECHNICALLY smart if you ask me. What would your advice to Muggsy Bogues be against LeBron James? Post him up?

 

Rumble In The Jungle?

 

I said something similar not so long ago.

I haven't read any further yet, but I'm sure 'face first' and 'no defence' will appear somewhere...

MTF

 

What absolute bollocks.

MTF :shit:

 

:bears:

MTF

 

It also helped, of course, that when he slowed, Ali found that he had a truly tremendous chin.

Jones Jr, on the other hand, hasn't.

MTF

 

Funny U Should Reference that Bout...

Compare Ali's DEFENSE in the Rumble in the Jungle w/the PRESUMABLY More "Technically Sound" Frazier's Defense, N EITHER of his Bouts w/Foreman???....



REED:hammert:

 

U're CONTRADICTING yourself...If Frazier's "Cross Arm" Defense is "Technically Smart" then Why ISN'T Joshua Clottey's Peek-a-Boo Defense???...Fuuuurthermore, R U Insinuating that Muggsy Bogues was a MORE Technically Sound Basketball Player than LeBron James???::...

Frazier's Success was Built MORE on HEART, DETERMINATION & DURABILITY than it was on "Technical Smarts"...But then Again, Some Guys Look @ a Pile of FECES & Lable it "Art", whereas REED just Calls it "SHIT"....

REED:hammert:

 

Using Frazier's fight's against Foreman as any kind of consistent marker of Frazier's defence is disingenious IMHO, unless you are simply marking Frazier's inability to dodge an uppercut...

George was a truly appalling STYLE matchup for Joe. He would have KO-ed Joe 100 times out of 100, because his uppercut heavy style is tailor made to beat Frazier.

It doesn't automatically mean that Frazier's defence was shit overall, though.

MTF

 

Just 1nce, REED Wishes Someone would Consider the Post REED was RESPONDING To, Before Going Off on ANOTHER Tangent...

Anyways, an Uppercut is Perhaps THE EASIEST Punch to EVADE...How Many NOTED Defensive Stalwarts REGULARLY Got Hit w/FLUSH Uppercuts the Way Frazier Did???...



REED:hammert:

 

Ali was 6'3 and Frazier was 5'11" to 6'

As I said before...it's the same old stupid argument that people like Steve Kim bring up, saying that such and such a fighter can "only" do this that or the other because his arms are so long or his legs are so long etc.

We are what we are.

Our physical limitations define us. Fighters are no different.

You could make the argument that Frazier's physical limitations forced him into a situation whereby he was forced to "take 2 to land 1", but that a less-technical fighter than Joe, with the same limitations, would have taken 3 to land 1.

As I say, it's pure metaphysics by now.

 

Nah man, the object of good boxing defence is to win boxing matches. If your defensive style doesn't allow you to mount an attack in the process it's for shit in the context of winning boxing matches. That's why head movement for instance, if you can pull it off, is superior to the shutter approach of Clottey or Abraham. With head movement you can slip and COUNTER, all in one. If you have both hands clutched to your head you cant. If another guy lands 3 shots out of 10 through you moving your head but you land 5 punches in that same period I contend that's BETTER defence than the other guy landing 2/10 but you only landing 2 yourself.

And this isn't some sort of contrived way to talk up my favourites, it's foundational to WHY guys like that are my favourites in the first place.

 

the better debate would be who was more skilled, ali or holmes. i would pick holmes.

 

Yawn. Do you have to try to shoe-horn Holmes into every discussion about Ali? We get it...you are a Holmes fan.::

Ali was better and greater than Holmes, get over it.

 

That is the point of the thread, but you're wrong about Frazier being one dimensional.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't rate Frazier at all. I believe him to be overrated. He was the first man to beat Ali and that's his claim to fame, IMO.

I hated his style and just see him as a one dimensional pug, who happened to have one of the best left hooks and some of the best stamina ever in the division. He got by on left hook and stamina...and was lucky he didn't face any huge punchers besides Foreman.

 

Fair enough. His lack of height and reach largely forced him to use the style that he used, but I just wouldn't call him one dimensional. He was a precursor to Mike Tyson. Was Tyson one dimensional? Of course not.

Frazier couldn't get up on his toes and jab. He was a bobbing and weaving pressure fighter who had really good handspeed, stamina, and swarming offense. His pressure (always moving forward and always forcing opponents to engage), upperbody movement, energy, workrate (in terms of combinations thrown), late rounds stamina, handspeed, body attack, and power all indicate more than one dimension to me.

He could drop you early or he could drop you late. He was relentless but like many fighters, he had to face The Greatest. He suffers in comparison to Ali, and that's no crime.

But one dimensional? Not in my book.

 

His style is NOTHING like Mike Tyson's. NOTHING. They're about the same height and both have power...and that's about it.