Who'd have been the best ever?

I'd say Whitaker with Hearns' power. You could still test Hearns' body out --- can't think where you might find a Whitaker weakness under these circumstances :scratcher:

 

That's less 'heart' than 'balls', if we're gonna get anatomical, IMO.:giggle:

 

Define "fighting heart" in the context of your post. Show where Ray has demonstrated that and where Floyd hasn't. Just confused.

I saw Floyd demonstrate heart against Shane, Corley and Judah just to name a few.....

 

no surprise...Sly swoops in to Floyd's rescue.

 

true.

still...I'd like an answer...

 

He's right though. He showed ALLOT of heart and composure in the first Castillo fight too. Floyd can definitely be criticised for his lack of drive to do great things in his career trajectory, but he's never shown any propensity to fold under adversity in the ring. Quite the reverse, actually.

 

Yup...then there's the hernandez fight where both hands were injured.

He demonstrated fighting spirit in the Hatton, Jesus Chavez and Ndou fights too.

As you said....there are fights that he should have tried to get made, no doubt....but in teh ring, I've never seen a lack of heart.

 

And to his credit, he's got proper USEFUL 'heart' as well, not Gatti/Corrales type masochistic heart. Useful heart isn't necessarily about getting punched in the face when you've got no chance of winning and telling the ref 'Im fine, I'm fine' without changing anything. That's just physical bravery.

Really top drawer fighters temper 'heart' with the ability to think and adapt while getting beat up and frustrated. In fact, I honestly think useful 'heart' is just 'composure under adversity'. Which Floyd clearly has.

 

Hearns, because of his most unique feature: his frame

 

The problem with the argument and comparison when looking at REED's and Jake's posts is that Leonard had moments against great fighters in the prime of their careers. That's a huge separation between the two.

leonard's first fight with Duran where he was hurt yet lost a close unanimous decision (by one point on two cards, two points on one card) trumps any "adversity" Floyd faced in any fight in his career.

lastly, to get back to Jake's point...Leonard, especially during his prime years, wasn't as willing to coast to victories as Floyd has against his best, worst and mediocre competition.

I think it's safe to say Floyd pre-Castillo approaches the game with a different mentality than the post-Castillo Floyd.

As far as I'm concerned there's a world of difference between the two guys. Mind you...I hate Leonard more than I hate Floyd, but let's be real here. Floyd's not cut from the same cloth as Leonard...well...inside the ring. Outside the ring they both have the same thirst for slapping around women...leonard gets the edge in that department too...he didn't catch cases for his indiscretions.

 

Post-Castillo Floyd still went out of his way to finish game but outmatched opponents too, on occassion:

Gatti, Ndou, Hatton, Mitchell ...spring to mind. Also he may not have finished Zab...but IMO he was on his way to doing so before the foul.

Sure..he didn't do it all the time...bvut it's not as if this was what he did every time out. PLUS he looked as though he wanted to get Shane outta there also..

 

Killer instinct and heart/composure in adversity are too different things, though. Floyd in the ring like outside is safety first by temperament. Doesn't really make him a worse fighter inside the ring, just a much less exciting one.

 

This is where we differ. Think of the all-time great fighters...Duran, Moore, Ali all had exactly what you're saying Floyd does not...which is Jake's point as to why Leonard is and will be held in higher esteem than Floyd.

if Floyd retired today, 20 years from now there's not a single fight on his resume which rivals the memory of Leonard's fights with Duran (both fights), Hagler or Hearns (both fights).

That's the point.

I highly doubt guys will sit around and fondly reflect on Floyd's fights with Chop Chop, Zab Judah and Sharmba Mitchell. The one fight Sly SHOULD have mentioned was Floyd's fight with Emanuel Burton....for as long as it lasted THAT was a good scrap. But again...Burton is a footnote.

 

True.

Same can be said of Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones and many other great fighters also..same can be said of a prime Ali also (Although Liston 1 fight is memorable..but for many reasons not necessarily back and forth war). Some fighters are too good as compared with their opponents..to be involved in GREAT fights. Ali, for example, only became involved in great fights when he lost a step.

The FAB four had consistently great fights no doubt...that four way rivalry is without compare in boxing history.

 

Roy Jones didn't have great fights because he didn't fight anybody. But that's another story.

Cupey

 

Whitaker had Chavez and to a lesser extent Rosario.

Ali fought in the 70's which is widely considered the greatest era in heavyweight history. if you look at the top ten from any point in the 70's Ali beat every guy save for Larry Holmes.

There's no way in hell you can compare Floyd to Ali. The one thing about Whitaker and Ali, since you're big on comparisons...they fought everyone they should have.

Roy is a different case altogether...he never had the guys in and around his division Ali or Whitaker did....hell that Floyd had.

Floyd isn't too good to be compared to his opponents, what he has working in his favor is finding the opportune time to fight the guy (same thing I've said about oscar for YEARS) and once he gets around to fighting a guy HOW he fights.

Therein is the separation between great fighters with great skills and a fighter with great skills.

Note: Add Wilfredo Benitez to Leonard's ledger. Though I thought the fight was stopped early, leonard handled his business and took him out.

Now compare that to Floyd's last two fights with Mosley and Marquez...he had completely beaten men in from of him and was satisfied with throwing one shot and virtually no combinations to make a real effort at stopping either guy. Leonard wouldn't have let guys hang around like that.