worst p4p#1 of all time?

Sure I agree with that, but I still think he was an incredible fighter, and in a P4P sense would pick him to beat any of Floyd's opponents without hesitation.

 

A more season Hopkins would have given Roy a tougher fight.

Toney would never do SHIT against Jones, even on the night he battered Barkley.

Roy's physical gifts were far too much for a guy like JT, who was far more effective against guys who came at him.

 

Nobody's saying its his fault, only that it mitigates the impact somewhat... Roy would have beaten him anyway, for what its worth, so the win is still a top win, but it probably wouldn't have been as ridiculously one sided

It's not Lloyd Honeyghan's fault that Donald Curry showed up in corpse form to defend his title against him, but it mitigates against Honeyghan's standing among every objective fight fan (except for the most jingoistic Brits)

 

And speed. Roy was faster than Floyd in a direct comparison, let alone in a P4P sense.

Floyd evens things up somewhat with his ridiculous defense and overall skill though, and infighting.

 

THIS....

Azumah "was NEVER a Lightweight Anyways"...Chavez "Had No Business Fighting Soooo high Up in Weight"...It's EASY to Play that Game, just Ask Roberto Duran Fans::...They Place Asterisks By EVERY Loss of his...

James Toney Spent his Entire CAREER "Out of Shape", Regardless WHAT Weight he was @...& when U WATCH Roy-Bernard from '93, BHop Really DOESN'T Fight Much Differently than he Does Now...People Make it Seem like he was a 10 Fight Pro w/a LIMITED Ammy Background or Something....



REED:limp:

 

I am not disagreeing with that at all

 

Superior power, superior handspeed, and superior reflexes. Reflexes so good that he got hit LESS in his prime than Floyd did, despite having far less defensive skill.

Greatness is subjective, but in terms of pure QUALITY it's my opinion that Jones and Leonard at their peaks were the two BEST fighters of all time.

Robinson probably has more claim than either one, but there's not enough footage of him at 147.

 

You CAN'T Compare Curry to a Guy like Toney, who ALWAYS had Weight Issues, from 160-Heavyweight...



REED:nono:

 

I have ripped Toney for being one-dimensional (beautiful dimension, but still one dimension) for years while others vomited out utter bullshit about his "versatility" so I'm not one to flatter him... yes, he would ALWAYS lose to Jones because Jones moves a lot, doesn't take too many chances inside, can get off one or two quick shots and get out, denying Toney the countering opportunities he lives off of... BUT, the idea that he wouldn't have improved on that "performance" by being in better shape is crazy... he definitely would have at least landed some good shots here and there, stole a round or two... he's not winning, but he definitely does better

 

let the jones jr fans have this one, fellas.

their guy still fights, even though he was KOd cold by some siberian penguin poacher who wasnt fit to feed roys roosters a decade ago

 

I wouldn't compare that Toney to Curry AT ALL.

You put a guy like Froch, and Pavlik in with the Toney that Jones beat, and JT would have looked like the best fighter in the world.

The Curry that Honeyghan beat was CRAP, and many welters in history would have beaten that version.

 

1) I would rate Roy as the greatest/best fighter of his generation and one of the 10 greatest/best ever. *shrugs* 2) Floyd basically just has.

 

I don;t get this line fo thinking

When Toney had these problems, his performances suffered... he lost to Dave Tiberi, regardless of what the judges said

Are you trying to say he was weight-drained when he was carving up guys like Barkley and Williams?

 

I think underestimating Tiberi had much to do with it.

Obviously JT was more mentally "up" for Barkley, and Williams.

 

X, Froch and Pavlik are shit compared to the guys we are talking about

For what its worth, I could see the same Toney Jones beat having to sweat out a controversial decision to a guy like Froch... he fucking lost to Dave Tiberi, for fuck's sake

I'll ask you the same question... the Toney Jones beat, same as the one who carved up Barkley and Williams?

 

he was dehydrated and cramping up by the midway point of the fight... he was completely out of shape

 

Nope. But it wouldn't have mattered.

Was the Chavez that Pea beat the same one that beat Rosario, and Taylor? No. But I don't think that would have mattered either.

 

I think speed in p4p sense is the difference. "p4p" super featherweight Floyd was a big puncher, he knocked out tough opponents there. As he went up in weight, his power reduced. just as it happened with Floyd when he went up to 175. But Jones' speed for such a big guy, that was ridiculous

 

Throughout his Career, 160, 168, 175, 190 & 200+, James Toney had PROBLEMS w/Weight & Conditioning...That's WHO Toney was....Along w/In-Ring Calmness, Counterpunching, Bravado & Other Attributes, LACK of DISCIPLINE was Also Part of the Package...

Toney was Basically the Eddie Mustafa Muhammad of His Era...Abundantly Skilled, Good Talent Level & SHIT Discipline...& he Used that Crutch to Absolve EVERY Loss he Had, Particularly the Higher Profile Losses...

Donald Curry DIDN'T have the Aforementioned LACK of Discipline that Plagued Toney's CAREER...Curry had ALREADY PLANNED to Move Up to 154, but was Ill Advised by Ray Leonard (& Mike Trainer) to Remain @ '47...As it Turned Out, Leonard DIDN'T Want Curry to Get a Fight w/Hagler Before he Could, so he Used his Influence to Manipulate the Situation...

Curry-Honeyghan was a One Off...Toney Spent his ENTIRE CAREER Struggling w/his Weight, Even as he Campaigned in a LimitLESS (Heavyweight) Division...




REED:mj:

 

Whitaker wasn't at his best either, that would have been 135 for him as well

I'm saying it wouldn't have mattered for Jones/Toney either, so what are you all hot and bothered about??

 

Was Toney in worse shape against Jones than he was against Barkley/Williams, yes or no?

 

You're Asking REED to Compare & Contrast Toney's Condition in Arguably his 2 MOST Impressive Fights, vs. his Condition in a One-Sided Schooling???....

X NAILED it when he Asked you to Compare the Chavez that Whittaker Beat, to the Chavez that Beat Rosario & Meldrick Taylor...


REED::

 

If it REALLY Wouldn't have Mattered, WHY are we Discussing whether Toney was In Shape or Not???...




REED:dunno:

 

X's whole argument falls apart when you consider that 1) Whitaker wasn't at his best weight, either 2) Chavez was in good shape ... Compare the Whitaker who beat Chavez to the Whitaker who beat Jose Luis Ramirez ... X's whole point was "at least Toney was at his best weight, unlike Chavez" which makes no difference because Whitaker wasn't at HIS best weight, either... Roy was

 

SD said "he made James Toney look like Otis Grant", my only point was that this probably would not have been the case had Toney been in good shape... Jones still wins clearly, but not quite the outright humiliation that occurred, that's ALL that I am saying

 

Tito's best weight was at 154 but not his best campaign, which was at 147 were he tended to box more patiently and methodically. Seemed like when he went to 154 he got power happy.

 

chav

 

:dunno:

 

LOL, I was going to post something like that initially